AIP mispayment

[unruly1986]

One lad I know on the Facebook owes £9.6k...

They WILL have to offer advice on the tax issues. At Leeming there are hundreds of people affected and they will be holding briefs. If/when I can get to one I will raise this question. I imagine some people haven't taken this into account.

So the discrepancy is simply that we have paid income tax on the `overpayment`, therefore we have paid too much tax?

Where do we start with that side of things? Admin, tax office, someone else?

Bishop, thanks for the info via pm; I suggest to anyone else affected they get in touch with him or the info is placed on here (if not already).

This has f**cked up my financial plans for the next year, just as everything was `on track`.

 

[techie_tubby]

I think the lads on TCW are going to be in a slightly better position with deploying all the time. OP Bonus and LSA will soften the blow a wee bit.

 

[The Bishop]

What really is sad and proves how much our leaders care....simply that they have done it 4 weeks before Christmas......they didn't even wait for the New Year, unbelieveable.

There's your duty of care, right there people, and yet they still send out the spin that moral in the Armed Services is good....lies, lies and more fecking lies.


Just thinking about the AIP credits...good for them, but my thoughts are in those cases it was the individuals fault for not being up to speed on their entitlements or a not bothered to check attitude. This issue is about the HR bods that didnt do their checks and caused this chaos.

muttythedog points out that no training was provided or books for reference given until six months after launch, surely by then a precedent had been set, most adminers thought they probably knew what they were doing and maybe didn't consult the guidance when it arrived? Either way, lets not get mixed up between the nonchalont airman who is oblivious to what they should get and the genuine airman who submits forms in good faith expecting that the checks in the JSP would be done.

 

[Downsizer]

I understood it that no recovery action will take place till after the ministerial decision... Just because the debt is placed there doesn't mean they are starting to recover it yet.

 

[StickyFingers]

Can you imagine the fallout if they did?

In these days of less manpower more workload hundreds of airman will just say "No"

The small things that folk used to let slide will no longer be accepted.

It used to be a system of give and take but lately is just seems to be take.

I wish I had the bottle to PVR.

 

[muttywhitedog]

I was a TG5 Gen tech GSE turned GTM and left as a Chf Tech in Feb this year.

Any advice gratefully accepted

I have audited approx 150 AIPs for my section, and not a single one on the list was for anyone who was already discharged. I wouldnt have been able to anyway because their docs (which would include any AIP paperwork) are packed off to TNT Archive on discharge.

To recover docs from TNT costs money. Dont take it as gospel, but if I were in charge of the budget, I would not be paying out for every single person's records to be returned for an audit that may result in 5% of those thousands of personnel being "invited" to pay back a few hundred quid.

 

[unruly1986]

I think the lads on TCW are going to be in a slightly better position with deploying all the time. OP Bonus and LSA will soften the blow a wee bit.

I see what you are saying, but it's not really the point, is it?

Do a detachment but waive the financial benefits because HR haven't followed the process?

TT, have you been affected (did you use the BTEC?).

 

[techie_tubby]

I see what you are saying, but it's not really the point, is it?

Do a detachment but waive the financial benefits because HR haven't followed the process?

TT, have you been affected (did you use the BTEC?).

No I have only used 1 AIP for my NVQ, got told mine had passed audit.

 

[busby1971]

I think the law changed recently on reducing pensions so I don't think this would be a possibility without a fair bit of legal work. EDPs may be a different matter and they can always go to the small claims.

The RAF keep defaulting to a previous case that allowed them to recover some debts and now apply it to all cases no matter what the situation. From my experience, and I think it's valid, the MOD will do what it wants until it is told to do otherwise by a court and in this situation there seems to be a fair old bit of mitigation, admin inexperience and no training, training schools telling people to submit a AIP after courses and at least one TS who agreed to AIPs outside the remit, none of this is an excuse but it should be taken into consideration.

Considering AIPs were brought in to keep people happy and motivate people to improve their lot, some one, some where appears to be spending a lot of good will that will be hard to win back, at least they'll have their promotion sorted.

 

[justintime129]

I have audited approx 150 AIPs for my section, and not a single one on the list was for anyone who was already discharged. I wouldnt have been able to anyway because their docs (which would include any AIP paperwork) are packed off to TNT Archive on discharge.

To recover docs from TNT costs money. Dont take it as gospel, but if I were in charge of the budget, I would not be paying out for every single person's records to be returned for an audit that may result in 5% of those thousands of personnel being "invited" to pay back a few hundred quid.

Playing devils advocate here. Does it matter how much it will cost, you have to be seen to be playing fair so to hell with the expense. Audit everybody.

 

[The Bishop]

I understood it that no recovery action will take place till after the ministerial decision... Just because the debt is placed there doesn't mean they are starting to recover it yet.

Absolutely 100% correct, BUT: you only have two pay periods (2 months?) to appeal the debt once its on your payslip, meaning if they don't hear anything from you, JPA assumes the debt is correct and they can start collecting. If the Ministerial decision is more than two months away....

You have to ask yourself:

If no decision has been made, why add debts to the pay statement now?

Why not wait until an announcement and then add them????

Does that not lead you to believe that perhaps a decision has been made and just not announced yet?

I'm a strong believer in being pro-active, no point moaning about the stable door when the horse has bolted!!!

 

[The Bishop]

I have audited approx 150 AIPs for my section, and not a single one on the list was for anyone who was already discharged. I wouldnt have been able to anyway because their docs (which would include any AIP paperwork) are packed off to TNT Archive on discharge.

To recover docs from TNT costs money. Dont take it as gospel, but if I were in charge of the budget, I would not be paying out for every single person's records to be returned for an audit that may result in 5% of those thousands of personnel being "invited" to pay back a few hundred quid.

muttythedog has poduced a legal gem right there, the Audit as i understood it, was for ALL AIPs submitted back to 2004, if the ex-service, discharged have not been audited, poses another juicy legal question!

 

[Robby]

Shame on them - they are not worthy to wear the Uniform.

Shame on them - they are not worthy to wear the Uniform.

"It was inputted on JPA as the code that had been used to migrate AIPs over on 1 Apr 06, rather than the new one. I would say this was an honest error by HR as there was no training for us prior to JPA, and it was utter chaos in th first 6 months as people just didnt know what to input. There were no manuals, no Business Process Guides, no SMEs to rely on."

Whilst I understand your statement AIP's were in place before JPA and the regulations prior to the introduction, were P presume robust - well they have not said they are looking back prior to 2004- have they? Furthermore the RAF migrated to JPA before the Navy and Army so are the other Services being audited from 1st Apr 04 or from when they rolled over?

As a stacker my JSP changes by the day, trying to find a reference from 2004 is impossible, how can an individual launch an appeal against an electronic JSP which must have been almost rewritten over the 8 years! My thoughts go out to anyone who has this hanging over them over Christmas or an OOA. And as already mentioned shame on our 'managment' -they are not worthy to wear the Uniform.

 

[The Bishop]

"It was inputted on JPA as the code that had been used to migrate AIPs over on 1 Apr 06, rather than the new one. I would say this was an honest error by HR as there was no training for us prior to JPA, and it was utter chaos in th first 6 months as people just didnt know what to input. There were no manuals, no Business Process Guides, no SMEs to rely on."

Whilst I understand your statement AIP's were in place before JPA and the regulations prior to the introduction, were P presume robust - well they have not said they are looking back prior to 2004- have they? Furthermore the RAF migrated to JPA before the Navy and Army so are the other Services being audited from 1st Apr 04 or from when they rolled over?

As a stacker my JSP changes by the day, trying to find a reference from 2004 is impossible, how can an individual launch an appeal against an electronic JSP which must have been almost rewritten over the 8 years! My thoughts go out to anyone who has this hanging over them over Christmas or an OOA. And as already mentioned shame on our 'managment' -they are not worthy to wear the Uniform.

The NAVY have completed their audit and financial recovery has already begun, which is why i'm not confident the Air environment won't follow, there really isn't anything being said from our green bretheren, so I have no idea what the ARMY plan to do?

 

[woody]

They will just make everyone who owes money redundant!

There is going to be a great big sh1t storm hitting the RAF soon, especially if it is not done even handheldly! This is going to be a make or break event for CAS, but hey he has feathered his own nest entertaining industry, looking for a directorship.

This is crying out for a leak to the press, especially with people looking at losing their homes.

 

[StickyFingers]

Why hasn't someone already?

I saw a story in The Sun a few months back when this started at 90SU.

Servicemen losing homes through no fault of their own is a massive story.

I assume the press read these forums as well, why has no one caught on yet?

 

[Weebl]

Playing devils advocate here. Does it matter how much it will cost, you have to be seen to be playing fair so to hell with the expense. Audit everybody.

What would be the point?

They pay money to get documents out of storage, they then audit those docs and find somebody owes money, the person no longer works for them so they have no legal way of recovering the money.

Yes, nice and fair.

And pointless, and expensive.

 

[The Bishop]

What does AIP actually stand for and what is it about?

Goatpedia is down so can't check on there.

Was kind of hoping this was a journo on a fishing trip but nothing followed it!!!

 

[The Bishop]

What would be the point?

They pay money to get documents out of storage, they then audit those docs and find somebody owes money, the person no longer works for them so they have no legal way of recovering the money.

Yes, nice and fair.

And pointless, and expensive.

I've had sniff around the ARRSE website (see what i did there?) seriously, they have a few threads on AIP where chaps that have left the Army several years ago have received letters from SPVA stating AIP overpayments and wanting the money back. Although the threads don't lead to any useful conclusion, it does say on one that SPVA can take money owed back from individuals pension funds?!

 

[Weebl]

I've had sniff around the ARRSE website (see what i did there?) seriously, they have a few threads on AIP where chaps that have left the Army several years ago have received letters from SPVA stating AIP overpayments and wanting the money back. Although the threads don't lead to any useful conclusion, it does say on one that SPVA can take money owed back from individuals pension funds?!

Are you sure that was from AIP overpayments?

There were pension adjustments made where people had too much (and too little) money initially put into their pension funds due to the MOD taking too long to sort out the proper pension figures for commutation after the law changed on what could be commuted.

That was a legal requirement, applicable to any pension fund.

I know for a fact if they went to all the expense of getting my documents out of storage, and then audited them they would end up with a net loss.