Astor

[Talk Wrench]

I am pretty sure that ASTOR is a civvy aircraft. it might have a few add ons and painted Mil colours and do a good job, but, does it need Licensed engineers for release to service on a day to day basis.



TW

 

[Fablon biff chit]

Well it didn't do that well on the Standard presentation - One fly past and the Hurricane stole the show!

 

[Talk Wrench]

Hmmmmm,

I still think that RAF types are redundant on this one.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Its got RAF EngO's..................

And engineers posted to it.

Perfect for anybody wanting that licence....

 

[Lamptramp]

I am pretty sure that ASTOR is a civvy aircraft. it might have a few add ons and painted Mil colours and do a good job, but, does it need Licensed engineers for release to service on a day to day basis.
TW

The Air Vehicle is based on the Bombardier Global Express, ETOPS Executive Jet.

Capable of flying non-stop from LA to Berlin.

Totally Glass Cockpit.

Twin BMW/RR 710 jets with 4 X 45 Kva generators, frequency wild electrical system.

 

[Disillusioned]

It may be based on a civvy aircraft but I don't see why it would need lncensed engineers seeing as it's owned by the military. Much like the tristar, VC10, Merlin, Nimrod, and probably everything else that isn't a single/twin seat killing machine.

 

[Talk Wrench]

Okay, can I then ask the question.

Is ASTOR a COMR aircraft. (Civilian Owned Military Registered) ?

TW

 

[wolfy]

Okay, can I then ask the question.

Is ASTOR a COMR aircraft. (Civilian Owned Military Registered) ?

TW

Not to my knowledge it isn't

 

[Talk Wrench]

Why this advert then?



http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/employer.asp?employerid=290&vacID=73794




If it needs a licensed guy as head of sched maint, then I really would like to know the Civ/Mil politico set up.

If I were put in that post and had to oversee the release to service of the aircraft, I sure as hell would want only licensed guys doing the jobs in the first place.


TW

 

[wolfy]

Why this advert then?



http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/employer.asp?employerid=290&vacID=73794




If it needs a licensed guy as head of sched maint, then I really would like to know the Civ/Mil politico set up.

If I were put in that post and had to oversee the release to service of the aircraft, I sure as hell would want only licensed guys doing the jobs in the first place.


TW

Well it looks like the maintenance is going to be contracted out, and as such the civiy company will want qualified staff. How else would they get hold of suitable staff. The AC has been modified for RAF duties but much of it is still the same so why not look for people who have the know how.

 

[Talk Wrench]

But WHY LICENSED engineers for sched maint?

How can you you have an unlicenced guy releasing the aircraft to service on a daily basis i.e flight line, and then ask for licensed guys to work in the shed?

This is very dodgy territory.

Does anyone have a bigger overview?

TW

 

[Maxmeister]

The AWAC's is based on a 707 airframe but is a military a/c, the same applies to the ASTOR! As far as i know it is owned and registered by the military and therefore only requires non-licensed RAF engineers.

I would imagine that the Depot Level Maintenance will be contractualised as it is with the AWAC's. I believe there is that they have a requirement for a licensed engineer to sign off all maintenance on the aircraft. It would be the equivilant of an NCO signing off a job on the line. I would imagine that because the majority of the personnel doing the work are not employed by the MOD, the civilian company are just covering thier ar@e's and ensuring there is some accountability.

 

[Scaley brat]

Why this advert then?



http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/employer.asp?employerid=290&vacID=73794




If it needs a licensed guy as head of sched maint, then I really would like to know the Civ/Mil politico set up.

If I were put in that post and had to oversee the release to service of the aircraft, I sure as hell would want only licensed guys doing the jobs in the first place.


TW

Aim high hit low ! 41K is NOT going to get the best licensed engineers around mate. They can get twice that with an airline !

 

[Dirty Harry]

I would imagine that the Depot Level Maintenance will be contractualised as it is with the AWAC's. I believe there is that they have a requirement for a licensed engineer to sign off all maintenance on the aircraft. It would be the equivilant of an NCO signing off a job on the line. I would imagine that because the majority of the personnel doing the work are not employed by the MOD, the civilian company are just covering thier ar@e's and ensuring there is some accountability.

An NCO signing of a job on the line and a Licensed Aircraft Engineer issuing a CRS are two very different things. NCO’s are in no way comparable to LAE’s. A LAE has far more scope, authority and responsibility and as Talk Wrench suggested, he/she would want the correct procedures and set up in place prior to releasing any aircraft.

I cannot see how unlicensed RAF Tech’s are carrying out line based activities yet there is a requirement for Licensed Engineers for hangar inputs.

On a different note, it’ll be good for any RAF folk posted onto ASTOR, especially people who are doing licenses and are looking at getting out in the near future. If anything just to give some experience of working a modern passenger aircraft.

 

[Talk Wrench]

An NCO signing of a job on the line and a Licensed Aircraft Engineer issuing a CRS are two very different things. NCO’s are in no way comparable to LAE’s. A LAE has far more scope, authority and responsibility and as Talk Wrench suggested, he/she would want the correct procedures and set up in place prior to releasing any aircraft.

I cannot see how unlicensed RAF Tech’s are carrying out line based activities yet there is a requirement for Licensed Engineers for hangar inputs.

On a different note, it’ll be good for any RAF folk posted onto ASTOR, especially people who are doing licenses and are looking at getting out in the near future. If anything just to give some experience of working a modern passenger aircraft.

DH.

Very well put as far as the role of the LAE is concerned. I don't think Maxmeister is at fault though for his comment about equivalence. Although he is wrong, that is due to the lack of knowledge about the LAE and the responsibilties they have.

I fully agree with you that it is fantastic if the serving RAF guys will get some valuable experience on "civ" aircraft and even better, if the RAF pays for them to get licensed.


SB.

You too are correct that 41k is no way near enough for an LAE with type rating, especially with the role of sched maint manager.

It begs the question, do they want a "B" licensed B1 engineer, a "B" licensed B2 engineer, or a "B" licensed B1 and 2 engineer.

For the role that is advertised, they should really be looking for a C license which commands far more money than what is being offered.


I am intrigued as to how the unit will operate with unlicensed RAF guys on a daily basis when sched maint is headed by an LAE post.

Please can someone expand on this?

TW

 

[Maxmeister]

I am intrigued as to how the unit will operate with unlicensed RAF guys on a daily basis when sched maint is headed by an LAE post.

Please can someone expand on this?

I know currently that they have Licensed Civilian Engineers working with RAF guys on the AWAC's in the shed doing the Major maintenance. I've never worked in that environment but i do believe they all work together and all sign on the same job cards. I think (I may be wrong again here) they mostly use the licensed engineers in a SNCO role.

 

[Past Engineering]

Maxmeister:

I know currently that they have Licensed Civilian Engineers working with RAF guys on the AWAC's in the shed doing the Major maintenance

I am afraid this is incorrect, there is no requirement for any of the staff to be licensed engineers. Most are ex service personnel who have the Sentry Q. Again incorrect re: the licensed engineers in SNCO roles, the personnel have the civilian equivalent 'rank' as they had in the services, or they are promoted (as per in service) when they have shown themselves competant to fill that grade. Yes they do work with the RAF guys and they all sign the appropriate paperwork in use depending on their authorisations (as per the JAP) and 'rank'/grade, so a SNCO/civilian equivalent will be authorised to scope independants (he must hold the appropriate aircraft Q) and then another SNCO/civilian equivalent will do the independant. Cpls/equivalent or above are authorised to oversign work.

 

[MrMasher]

Am I being daft here or did I just completely miss what is going on here?

In my little bubble the way I see most of the air force is like this:
1st line is RAF and anything else already is or is becoming civvie.

If you think the RAF will give us techies our licences whilst we are still serving you must be mad!
They'd then have to pay us retention bonuses like the aircrew because we'd all jump ship!

The job advertisment looks like they are trying to find someone with experience of the aircraft to set up depth maint.

 

[Past Engineering]

MrMasher: Your confusion is understood, the RAF you describe is the way it appears to be going, the MOD/Government have been reducing the manpower and then sending them into stupid places for no valid reason which means that they have no-one left to maintain the aircraft. So new aircraft are coming in with the set up you describe, the other platforms are starting to go towards that MOD requirement. Kinloss was the first with NSG, followed by no time line order: VC10 Saints, CMU Tornadoes Marham, Jump Harrier at Cottesmore and JSST Sentry at Waddington and Typhoon at Coningsby.

The Job for the head of shed is for a type licensed person, but I am not sure if this is a requirement for the line/maintence personnel doing the work, I have not asked the maintenance management on the other programmes wether they 'have' to be licensed to do that job, maybe Astor is being run differently by their contractor.

I think you are correct when you say it is highly unlikely the RAF will pay RAF personnel to become type licensed, there is not enough money in the pot to support the front line, repair aircraft or supply parts.

 

[matkat]

I am pretty sure that ASTOR is a civvy aircraft. it might have a few add ons and painted Mil colours and do a good job, but, does it need Licensed engineers for release to service on a day to day basis.



TW

|My info might be out of date as I left the project a year ago but yes that was the plan, MIL 145 stated that this was the case may have changed since then though.