Astor

[Talk Wrench]

|My info might be out of date as I left the project a year ago but yes that was the plan, MIL 145 stated that this was the case may have changed since then though.

So I guess that means there will be no AMM's, no SAC techs, JNCO's or SNCO's and ultimately no JENGO or SENGO.

Only a few licensed bods then.


Which means cost saving all around.

It would be nice to see the out of area prices that the LAE will COMMAND for going out of area.DT_Xtremez_03:
TW

 

[Dirty Harry]

It would be nice to see the out of area prices that the LAE will COMMAND for going out of area.DT_Xtremez_03:
TW

If there is a requirement for LAE's to go OOA I think the MOD is going to have to part with some serious amounts of cash before they get any takers!

Changing the subject slightly, I am also interested to know if the maintenance for the FSTA (if it ever comes into service) will be contracted out. My understanding was that a number of the aircraft are going to be civil registered and utilised to carry fare paying passengers when not required by the RAF. If this is to be the case then the aircraft will need to be released by appropriately qualified personnel, i.e. LAE's.

 

[Talk Wrench]

DH , How about £50k for a 4 month out of area tour on top of the normal pay?

I might consider it!!!!!!!!!

TW

 

[matkat]

My understanding is (was) that the LAEs would sign of the aircraft after the work had been done by the RAF lads and yes my understanding again was that the FSTA would be maintained along the same lines. As for operating OOA yes would also be part of the LAEs deal, as I said previous things might have changed since I left the ASTOR project I just do not know.

 

[Talk Wrench]

My understanding is (was) that the LAEs would sign of the aircraft after the work had been done by the RAF lads and yes my understanding again was that the FSTA would be maintained along the same lines. As for operating OOA yes would also be part of the LAEs deal, as I said previous things might have changed since I left the ASTOR project I just do not know.

As you know MK,

Signing off work done by unlicensed personnel is a massive responsibility.

No tech charges in the civvie game, just a revoked licence and a P45 when someone elses work is to blame and you've signed the CRS.

I wonder what the ALAE has to say about this?

 

[Dirty Harry]

I’ve got to agree with Talk Wrench on this one. Unlike the RAF, civil aviation does not carry people who make mistakes. No slapped wrists, tech charges or a promotion or posting to ‘keep things quiet’ out here in the real world. The authorities take away your licence, stamp and as such your livelihood.

 

[MLT]

Matkat,

I don't know when you were involved in the project but there have been RAF techies on the Sqn for over 3 years.

There are indeed AMM's, SAC(T), and J/T's. Yes there are JEngO's and no the aircraft are not released for flight at first line by LAE's.

The Squadron is supported at 2nd Line by Raytheon.

 

[Aaron O'Dickydido]

Aim high hit low ! 41K is NOT going to get the best licensed engineers around mate. They can get twice that with an airline !

That may be so in some cases but believe me many B rated engineers are working for a lot less than £40K. Do not believe all you hear about wages in the civilian sector.

Life is not always greener on the other side !

 

[Dirty Harry]

That may be so in some cases but believe me many B rated engineers are working for a lot less than £40K. Do not believe all you hear about wages in the civilian sector.

Life is not always greener on the other side !

It's a damn sight greener than the RAF I can assure you. Not just it terms of salary, but quality of life.

LAE's with a couple of decent type ratings command 40k plus salaries and most Airlines/MRO's out here pay that kind of money.

There are a few organisations that pay sub-standard wages for both mechanics and LAE's. I was offered a job with one of them (based in Exeter) when I left the RAF back in 2005. The remuneration package was poor to say the least. Salary for a fitter/technician was approx £20k and an LAE approx £27-32k. Fortunately I took my other option with another Airline and now having worked my way up to type rated LAE, earn more than a top level WO.

I was under the misconception that an NCO/SNCO’s equivalent in Civvy Street was Licensed Aircraft Engineer. I thought I was being grossly under paid as a Cpl, however, it’s wasn’t until I left that I realized how insignificant my level of authority and responsibility was compared to that of a LAE. The roles of an LAE and an NCO/SNCO are not comparable.

As I’ve said before, it’s a good world out here. It’s a buoyant market at the moment and there are plenty of opportunities for those folk leaving in the coming months, particularly the ones who’ve been pro-active and done all the licence modules off their own back. The days of employers putting you through your licenses are long gone. Station Engineers or Hangar Managers see plenty of soon to be ‘ex RAF’ CV’s turning up on their desks. The guys who’ve gotten off their backside and invested in their own future stand out from the many that’ve let the years tick by with only a BTEC and possibly an NVQ to their name.

For the guys leaving having passed all the modules, with the right employer and environment you could potentially hold a licence after one year. If you prove your worth, aircraft type courses may come your way. Then licensed positions and decent salaries can become reality. It’s a steep learning curve, even for the folk who come off the AT fleet as I did. I’ve learnt more in the past two and a bit years than the 10 years I spent in the RAF. It takes a while to find your feet but if you are prepared to graft and put in the effort, the rewards won’t be too long in coming.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Sorry gents, the layout on this one is....

Bombardier will maintain the ASTOR to the military spec version of 145 in the same way as Waste o space maintain the Tonkas at Marham.

They have to as the Stenninal is RAF Owned and subject to the regulations found in the JAP. In RAF service it will be controlled and maintained to service ways.

 

[Little Tronk]

Sorry gents, the layout on this one is....

Bombardier will maintain the ASTOR to the military spec version of 145 in the same way as Waste o space maintain the Tonkas at Marham.

They have to as the Stenninal is RAF Owned and subject to the regulations found in the JAP. In RAF service it will be controlled and maintained to service ways.

The RAF will operate and maintain the Sentinel at first line with limited 2nd line responsibilities.

Raytheon provide 2nd line maintenance and specialist services (FSRs etc) to the RAF.

Bombardier have nowt to do with it other than they built the green aircraft and provide the usual support services.

Simple!

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

The RAF will operate and maintain the Sentinel at first line with limited 2nd line responsibilities.

Raytheon provide 2nd line maintenance and specialist services (FSRs etc) to the RAF.

Bombardier have nowt to do with it other than they built the green aircraft and provide the usual support services.

Simple!

Wrong about the company with the depth maintenance, however my other orignial comments seem to be verified..

 

[Little Tronk]

Wrong about the company with the depth maintenance, however my other orignial comments seem to be verified..

Best tell Raytheon that then!

 

[Saudistu]

As you know MK,

Signing off work done by unlicensed personnel is a massive responsibility.

No tech charges in the civvie game, just a revoked licence and a P45 when someone elses work is to blame and you've signed the CRS.

I wonder what the ALAE has to say about this?

And the possibility of doing a few years time at her majestys pleasure if you sign off something later proved to have been a cause to an air accident. A lot of signing off for unlicensed mechanics work is down to individual trust. In some areas, especially when working as a contractor, there is pressure to sign work off that has been performed by a mechanic that you have no great idea of his experience. To me, that is unacceptable, and you could pay the price. On the other hand, somebody you have worked with for years could still make a mistake, as everyone can, and again you could end up in the deep stuff. Losing your license, or having it suspended pending an inquiry could be the least of your problems.

 

[3wheeledtechie]

I can only assume that they would ask for a licenced engineer with the relevant type rating, as because this is a new a/c for the RAF, it is the only recognised qualification for experience on this type.

 

[sumps]

Just seen the volunteers list (SGT – however Cpl on the PSL can apply) for three engineers 1 heavy 2 ligths – 18 months training (Sept 07 – May 09) to get your B licence, then 6 months of type training and conversion then onto the real thing – closing date 13 Aug 07 see orders for Email address and further info

- Good luck for all those applying DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Weebl]

If you think the RAF will give us techies our licences whilst we are still serving you must be mad!

That is exactly what is happening

They are trawling for a couple of SNCOs to send to Barry college for a B licence followed by 12 months in a civilian environment to get the type.

I am not sure what is happening regarding making sure they get return of service but I would presume some kind of 'golden handcuff' deal will end up being arranged where you have to pay back x amount if you leave within x years.

 

[Dirty Harry]

Just seen the volunteers list (SGT – however Cpl on the PSL can apply) for three engineers 1 heavy 2 lights – 18 months training (Sept 07 – May 09) to get your B licence, then 6 months of type training and conversion then onto the real thing – closing date 13 Aug 07 see orders for Email address and further info

Good luck for all those applying DT_Xtremez_30:

I’ll bet they get more applications for this than the last round of redundancies!

So that’s 18 months of training just to pass the exams, plus a further 1 year minimum within a Part-145 approved maintenance organisation to satisfy the CAA’s pre-requisite for licence issue, plus type training followed by the lottery of trying to get that illusive first type rating on your licence. I reckon it’ll be 3 years minimum before anybody will be in a position to certify.

They are trawling for a couple of SNCO’s to send to Barry College for a B licence followed by 12 months in a civilian environment to get the type.

Why doesn’t that surprise me, another rank orientated system. Why does it have to be a SNCO? If an experienced Cpl or Jnr Tech/SAC(T) is capable of passing the exams then he/she should be considered.

That said good luck to the guys who get selected. I’m sure there will be some sort of clause in terms of further service but I doubt very much people will object, particularly when somebody else has paid for their licence. Work off the bond then leave and start earning a proper wage!

 

[Talk Wrench]

I think that the Army ran or are still running a similiar scheme for the bell212 detachment in Brunei as far as licensing the REME tecs was/is concerned.

But, I hope that this clears up the popular misconception in the RAF, that Civvies have to be licensed to do the same job as a RAF techy, when in actual fact, RAF guys need to be licensed to do the same job as a Civvy.


A question though. If a licensed engineer surpasses the authority of an engineering officer, which in reality they do, then that would mean, the succesful SNCO candidate who passes the EASA exams and gets a type rating will be the bane of even OC Eng's life.

A Snec potentially will be able to F@ck the whole Engineering heirarchy up because he has his ticket and will have the right to tell them to poke it, with the Law on his side.


And another thing, the days of the beercall will be over for the RAF licensed engineer. Even though the military is exempt from the RSTA, the licensed engineer will not be as he/she will be bound by civvy and not military rules. It won't be just a case of feeling under the weather for a few hours, it could very well be service at her majesties pleasure.


Good luck to the successful guys though,

Barry college is a highly recommended facility.




TW

 

[Weebl]

So that’s 18 months of training just to pass the exams, plus a further 1 year minimum within a Part-145 approved maintenance organisation to satisfy the CAA’s pre-requisite for licence issue, plus type training followed by the lottery of trying to get that illusive first type rating on your licence. I reckon it’ll be 3 years minimum before anybody will be in a position to certify.

It is actually 6 months full time college and 12 months working in a Part-145 environment.

I would put the figure closer to 2 years total before you are signing off jobs.