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Astor

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Rigga, I too am in ignorance of MIL 145/66 having not read the facts. Perhaps they will consider military experience and reduce the qualifying period, only time will tell? However, whilst the requirements of MIL 145/66 may have been met, the requirements of EASA 145/66 certainly won’t. Therefore, will the licence be valid for use outside of the military within a Part-145 maintenance organisation governed by EASA regulations?

Whilst I agree with your view about job erosion, I do not believe there will be any complaints from the SNCO’s selected to gain a licence. At the end of day they will be getting it for free, somebody else (the RAF) picking up the bill for the training and exams. Holding the licence alone will greatly enhance their career prospects on the outside providing it is acceptable to the authorities.
 

Rigga

Licensed Aircraft Engineer
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DH,
Whilst I agree that RAF personel that get qualifications such as these won't complain and that it may make them feel more attractive to an outside employer - I don't believe there will be a direct cross-over to the Civvy Licence - I would think that after sitting a (possibly) reduced exam, the one-year of experience in an appropriate Civil maintenance environment will still hold.

Therefore, in answer to your first question;

IMHO! No. It will not be valid for use outside specific miltary environments, though it MAY be more readily transferable after a qualifying period.
 

I Look Like Kevin Costner

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DH,
Whilst I agree that RAF personel that get qualifications such as these won't complain and that it may make them feel more attractive to an outside employer - I don't believe there will be a direct cross-over to the Civvy Licence - I would think that after sitting a (possibly) reduced exam, the one-year of experience in an appropriate Civil maintenance environment will still hold.

Therefore, in answer to your first question;

IMHO! No. It will not be valid for use outside specific miltary environments, though it MAY be more readily transferable after a qualifying period.

Formed that rivet with one blast, Rigga...........
 

sumps

Sergeant
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I have had a quick mosey through the EASA Pt 66, HERE


As for the B1,2 if any of us care to read the modules toward the end then you will see just how much more studying you may need to do to hold a pt 66.
Although you can assemble all of you experience (qualifications, Exam results and exam papers and log book experience – of which we have all done, haven’t we!?!?!?) and then draw up a report and have it validated by the competent authority in this case EASAs representative the CAA at the cost of approx £1000(ish) – as shown in Annex III (Pt 66)Section B, Subpart D (Conversion of National Qualifications) and E (Examination Credits)


As for the C licence you need your B which stops the officers straight away however if you look at 66.A.30 Para 5

Experience Requirements…for category C obtained through the academic route:

An applicant holding an academic degree in a technical discipline, from a university or other higher educational institution recognised by the competent authority, three years of experience working in a civil aircraft maintenance
environment on a representative selection of tasks directly associated with aircraft maintenance including six months of observation of base maintenance tasks

1. Not all our S/JEngO’s will hold an approved degree, if they hold one at all!!!
2. 3 years of civil maintenance environmental experience, our officers don’t stay in place longer than 2 Years let alone move through a selection of tasks (by that do they mean get you hands dirty?)
3. 6 months of base maint’ observation – we have no approved 145 areas so his will be just as hard to obtain as the point above


I recently attended a Conference at the RAeS on Maintenance Training. These things became apparent to me:

1. There is shortage of licensed engineers.

2. Civy Street in waiting for some sort of “financial input” from the government to sort this out i.e. the airlines don’t want to dip into there own pockets.

3. The CAA have made, at a high level, representations to all three armed services in the last year reference our courses and training and their mapping to the B1,2 modules. Subsquently they have had no reply but are trying again post this conference.

4. The Navy and the Army DO have an Aviation mappable programme that could be between 2 – 4 modules short of a B1&2 (if the powers that be pulled their fingers out enable some sort of crossover).

5. The RAF currently has NO training programme that can be mapped to the B1, 2 according to the university that looks after the Army and the Navy programmes.

5. When asked what is the RAF going to do about it? The senior military representative gave a negative answer to the point where he didn’t have to do anything - however does recognise where we are coming from.

I can’t wait for the FSTA and A400M to come in (A400M will be a 145 maintained aircraft) the rules reg’s and training are going to have to change – does that mean that he A400M school destined for Brize will then have to be a 147 approved site? If we are to maintain to 145 regulations
 
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Some interesting points made there sumps.

Speaking from experience as someone who has worked on both sides of the fence, I can clarify that the theoretical training received in the RAF does not meet the knowledge requirements of Part-66.

Certain modules such as Maths, Physics and Aerodynamics are covered in sufficient depth on an FT course for example and as such would be directly mappable. Therefore exemptions could be possible if a decent case was put forward to the authorities. However, certain elements fall way short and some are not covered at all. These include Avionics and Electrics for the mechanical trades, Aircraft Systems, Maintenance Practices, Gas Turbines and Air Legislation.

An EASA Part-66 B1 or B2 Licence (Aeroplanes Turbines) is geared towards the maintenance of large transport aircraft. If the RAF wants to get with the times and have an aviation program that can be directly mapped to those found in Civil Aviation then it must make changes to its training structure and the subjects taught. Even if the rules and regulations were changed and exemptions granted for certain examinations, you would still need the civil aircraft maintenance experience. The procedures, practices and legislation of working civil aircraft compared to military aviation is not comparable, hence the requirement.

With regards to FSTA, if the government’s proposal to utilise the aircraft for ad hoc charter work (carry fare paying civilian pax) to help finance the project comes to fruition, then some serious changes will need to be made. The aircraft will have to be maintained under Part-145 regulations with all maintenance being certified by appropriately qualified LAE’s.

This begs the question about the RAF Aircraft Technicians involvement with the operation. Will they train up a select number of individuals to fulfil the LAE function? We are now back to square one. They still have to pass the licence examinations and get the civil aircraft experience of which 6 months must be on type (A330 RR Trent) prior to licence and type rating issue, something which is currently unachievable within the military system. My bet is that certain elements of line maintenance will be contracted out using type rated civvy LAE’s with the RAF Technicians being utilised as mechanics.
 

Rigga

Licensed Aircraft Engineer
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Hi again gents,
Jus' stickin' me nose in again, but I think you are mixing two subjects here:

EASA 145/66 - where it is possible for wanabe's to obtain Cat A, B or C Licences via different routes that at this time are not quite available to RAF techies OR Tech OFFICERS.

(As yet unseen) MIL 145/66 - which SHOULD enable some RAF techies AND Tech OFFICERS to be able to conduct their military business - on military aircraft - in a way similar to the EU's Standard of Aircraft Maintenance.

The point being:- the MIL 145 & 66 systems WILL enable RAF Techies and SengO's, etc, to qualify for and conduct Cat A, B or C type, Releases to Service of Military Aircraft from Line and Base Maintenance. (there is no point of having it if the Military cant use it)

Under current EASA regs; Qualifcation for any MIL 145 or MIL 66 will probably (prolly?) still NOT qualify for EASA 145/66 at least until exams have been satisfied and the required experience has been proven.

As a "For instance" both the Vietnamese and Hong Kong CAA's have reflected perfect mirror copies of JAR 145 & EASA 145 and neither countries licensing or aircraft documentation is offically accepted by EASA as a 'similar' qualification and both require normal Licence examination levels or re-certification of anything received from those areas.

As for NON-MIL Aircraft in MIL service - I cant think of how the MOD plonkers got themselves into this one - I believe the way forward is to give massive Tax Free Pay to Civvy engineers who want to forward to get those aircraft. Similar to the YANK way.
FSTA will have to be CIVVY all the way, to enable all work to be within the Controlled EASA system for Civilian service between Military missions. (Though I, for one, don't believe EASA will allow a Part-Time Fuel Tanker to carry fare paying PAX? maybe they will all be "Foreigners"?)

Keep hammerin'
 

sumps

Sergeant
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Er...whats Mil145/66 - I thought we only had JAP / JPS / AP100B or did I miss somthng? :PDT_Xtremez_21:
 
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sumps

Sergeant
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My miststake!!!

My miststake!!!

The other thing is the aircraft IS NOT ASTOR in this case its ISTAR see PPRUNE HERE an ISTAR being a Beechcraft King Air 350ER...BUT that still doesnt get us round the legislation does it?!?!?!
(Info backed up from speeking to those that have seen the people go on the course)

PIC OF PLANE HERE
 

Talk Wrench

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The other thing is the aircraft IS NOT ASTOR in this case its ISTAR see PPRUNE HERE an ISTAR being a Beechcraft King Air 350ER...BUT that still doesnt get us round the legislation does it?!?!?!
(Info backed up from speeking to those that have seen the people go on the course)

PIC OF PLANE HERE

Sumps,

it's definitely ASTOR we're talking about.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/astor/

Although ISTAR will probably throw up the same anomolies.

Some good debate so far as to exactly how the RAF will implement the servicing policy of this new aircraft.

I will try and get some more info from the CAA when I get a chance, after all, they should have a definitive answer. (they usually do!!)


TW.
 
M

monobrow

Guest
ISTAR is not a plane. There may be some ISTAR platforms, but not a plane called ISTAR.

And that's all I got to say about that.
 
B

Bluntend

Guest
ISTAR is not a plane. There may be some ISTAR platforms, but not a plane called ISTAR.

And that's all I got to say about that.

Erm, sorry if I'm pointing out the bleeding obvious and/or this has been raised elsewhere but isn't ASTOR the Airborne Stand Off Radar and the Global Express is the aircraft to which it is attached? The whole package is the Sentinal isn't it?
 
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monobrow

Guest
Erm, sorry if I'm pointing out the bleeding obvious and/or this has been raised elsewhere but isn't ASTOR the Airborne Stand Off Radar and the Global Express is the aircraft to which it is attached? The whole package is the Sentinal isn't it?

Bang on mate. ISTAR is the "umbrella" into which many kit is falling into. Intelligence Surveillance Target Aquisition and Reconnisance
 
B

Bluntend

Guest
Sweet. 8 Pages of chat/debate/arguement about how we should all be signed up to work on it and nobody seems to know what the bloody aircraft is called.

Personally, and I accept that I haven't read every post on this subject so apologies if this is covered elsewhere. If the RAF needs servicemen and women who work on this aircraft to have civvie quals, those quals and certificates should, IMHO, be provided for by the crown. There should also be a reasonable return of service to safeguard the RAF's investment in the training provided.
 

sumps

Sergeant
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Sweet. 8 Pages of chat/debate/arguement about how we should all be signed up to work on it and nobody seems to know what the bloody aircraft is called.

Personally, and I accept that I haven't read every post on this subject so apologies if this is covered elsewhere. If the RAF needs servicemen and women who work on this aircraft to have civvie quals, those quals and certificates should, IMHO, be provided for by the crown. There should also be a reasonable return of service to safeguard the RAF's investment in the training provided.

Correct, however the way we are trained and the way we legislate is different to the way the civvies do it. We (the MoD) are now starting to bring in aircraft that need to be maintained under civil rules with military people then operate it under military conditions this complicates things in a legal sense.

As for the type of aircraft I was assured this morning by the WO who has lost his man power to this aircraft that it is the Beechcraft 350ER not the Bombadier Global Express that they are to be employed upon - however I do stand to be corrected.

luv-n-kisses Sumps:PDT_Xtremez_27:
 
B

Bluntend

Guest
As for the type of aircraft I was assured this morning by the WO who has lost his man power to this aircraft that it is the Beechcraft 350ER not the Bombadier Global Express that they are to be employed upon - however I do stand to be corrected.

luv-n-kisses Sumps:PDT_Xtremez_27:

Well, I wouldn't want to contradict your WO, but according to Janes Defence, ASTOR is integrated into the Raytheon - Bombardier Sentinel R1, but, like you I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Operating civilian equipment in a military role has always been tricky. But Sentinel/ASTOR/Beachcraft or whatever we want to call it isn't the first time we've had to face these challenges. Our Tristar and comms fleet aircraft, for example, all have civilian engines maintained under civilian rules by civilian companies. Its complicated commercially but not impossible. If we need to bring in new practices, then so be it. If we need to train up our men and women with the same skills and qualifications that technicians have in the civilian environment, then so be it. What we need to be concious of isn't whether our techies are up to the job, but how long can the RAF hold onto them once they have these highly valuable quals.
 

sumps

Sergeant
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Mil Part 145 ?

Mil Part 145 ?

Has any one had any experience of operating in and around these regs?

Mil Part 145 this can be found in the local domain under the mane of Maintenance Approved Organization Scheme (MAOS). It is in essence another Def Stan (05-130) which is looks on the face of things to be a sort of Cut-Copy-Paste version of EASAs. –The FAQ’s still don’t explain how an aircraft that may be required to remain on the civil register will be serviced by people with no civil licence
 
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I’ve had a look through the Mil-145 regulations and it is virtually a carbon copy of EASA Part-145 with a few words changed here and there. As you’ve pointed out sumps, nowhere does it state how civil registered aircraft will be maintained and released by military personnel.

With regards to FSTA, I have not seen or heard any updated plans as to how this aircraft will operate and by whom it will be maintained. Perhaps somebody 'in the know' can shed some light on the subject?
 

vim_fuego

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As for the type of aircraft I was assured this morning by the WO who has lost his man power to this aircraft that it is the Beechcraft 350ER not the Bombadier Global Express that they are to be employed upon - however I do stand to be corrected.

luv-n-kisses Sumps:PDT_Xtremez_27:

Looks like a Bombadier to me as it taxi's past my window every now and then...

He's onto something with the Beechcraft though...
 

sumps

Sergeant
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Looks like a Bombadier to me as it taxi's past my window every now and then...

He's onto something with the Beechcraft though...

What’s taxiing past your window compared to what the blokes are now going on a course for are IMHO two different aircraft - I understand that ASTOR will be MoD (JAP) maintained and the Beechcraft MoD maintained with a licence.

Now stop staring out of the window and get back on with your work! :PDT_Xtremez_28:
 
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MLT

Guest
ASTOR or Sentinel R Mk1 to give it it's proper designation IS being maintained under JAP regulations by RAF engineers.

It has been for the past 9 months, and will continue to be.

There are currently NO licenced engineers on 5 Sqn.

If anyone wants further information (most of it out of date) about this aircraft and what it does:

http://www.raytheon.com/products/astor/celebration/
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/sentinelr1.cfm
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/aboutus/5acsquadron.cfm

The following is the only information in the public domain about the Beechcraft 350ER to be purchased by the MOD:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2815881&C=europe

This is not the forum to discuss information regarding this project.

I feel a barrage of abuse coming on......... but unless it is in the 'public' domain....... Beadwindow.

MLT
 
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