ATC/FOA Amalgamation

[Fearless Leader]

Which is why I said that it's not that straightforward! People can wish away to their heart's content but I can remember there being reviews going back to 1991 when the idea was floated about a merger. And there were probably reviews before that.

But I do think there could be scope (no pun intended!) for TG12 to get off its backside and do more OOAs. The example they gave at the Manning roadshow was RAFP, where they're filling slots that don't necessarily need the expertise of police personnel the job could go to any trade with an RAFP as supervisor. So you could get scopies to do more non-traditional jobs and ease the burden for other ops support tradesmen. It might also get some of those people who think we have 'a bunker mentality' to wind their necks in.

The issue of an actual merger is not an easy path to go down.

 

[FOMz]

Well said FL. There's always PMA trawls for various non-trade specific jobs in theater. In Kabul last year, I met a RN Submariner Weapons Tech who was working as a clerk, he loved it.

 

[TallySame!]

You guys should read up on the career structures of TG9 and how the various career streams work.

Thats a good call, and sadly, we only ever get to visit maybe an ATC Tower and/or LATCC/SCATCC and never for very long.

Personally, I think the crossover training (when we get that far) will be hard..for instance, me doing a very busy piece of area ATC is going to be vastly different from controlling a 4v4 somewhere. (When we have that many jets airborne )

Obviously, FCs just control...we dont do area, then tower and the other specialiaties of ATC.

However, if it can be done, and all procedures embraced with emergenny banter, then I welcome it. Relations between ATC and FCs can be..tense. Would be nice to eliminate that.

 

[FOMz]

Best place to start is making the brews....... DT_Xtremez_28:

Tea White Two in my 'lovebucket' please - and make sure you rim the cup correctly, otherwise it tastes vile. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Fearless Leader]

I've failed there! I can remember falling out with the FS at Akrotiri ATC when we were down from Troodos and not using the teapot to make the brews...

 

[FOMz]

Fookin Luddite!

 

[norfolkred1]

I upset an an ex ATC every day sometimes more than that, then again I often tell her if I was her I would have married me. Inter trade relations somtimes work well it did 25 years ago.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

FOMz,

Is your trade still that backwards that you actually make tea? Here at the home of TG12 we have machines to do all of that for us and it tastes vile!

On a more serious note though, is there jobs at SAC level that could not be currently done by both trades? I understand that things get more specialist (whether FOM/ATC or ASM) in both trades as we progress up the ranks. I am in one of these "specialist" jobs at the moment so would not expect to be released to a FOM post in the remainder of my career.

Again, as I stated earlier, it is too late for us old buggers. What we have to do is ensure that those joining tomorrow have all the abilities needed to undertake both trades.

Fearless Leader,

IMHO this is only to cover FMDL levels in both trades at SAC rank, FOA are some 60 odd SACs short and we are 70 ish over!

 

[FOMz]

The best brews are always hand mate mate!

As for the jobs at SAC level, I'm sure if the instructors at TTF and at your school got there heads together (if they haven't at some point already) would easily be able to find common ground and create a course as such. OJT is a major part of our training system, so to be honest, if the trainer is good, I can't really for-see any major problems.

What if the ASOPs you send over decide to jump ship to us? How will that be taken in your TG?

 

[Fearless Leader]

FOMZ, I think I'd say good luck to them and hope it has a happier ending than the guys and gals we encouraged to go for Air Cartographer, who then ended up being made reduntant.

NAIY, dagnamit! Thought I might get some interesting OOAs! But I think we might be OK to do some tasks, it just depends I suppose on the individual - some people struggle to do the TACRO job down south!!!

 

[norfolkred1]

What if the ASOPs you send over decide to jump ship to us? How will that be taken in your TG?

As NAIDYO states us older sweats will be left on the bench, however looking at what our younger generation have on offer within the Trade I would openly encourage them to get out if the chance came along. We are now the Home Guard with very little to look forward too

 

[Never Alert]

But I do think there could be scope (no pun intended!) for TG12 to get off its backside and do more OOAs. The example they gave at the Manning roadshow was RAFP, where they're filling slots that don't necessarily need the expertise of police personnel the job could go to any trade with an RAFP as supervisor. So you could get scopies to do more non-traditional jobs and ease the burden for other ops support tradesmen. It might also get some of those people who think we have 'a bunker mentality' to wind their necks in.

The issue of an actual merger is not an easy path to go down.

I have to say that we are already quite well committed to OOA dets if you add them all up & compare them to spare manpower within the trade.

1ACC
16AAB
RAP TROOP
JALC
C-RAM (set to increase)
FIADGE
E3 tasking

There are more than a few SACs who have volunteered for driving duties in both sandy theatres too.

 

[Never Alert]

Are you JNCO? Waiting for your course? What do you know about the FOA side?

I'm close to the end of the course.

FOA, I've met plenty of you guys on various courses etc & they all seem to enjoy it however, from what I've been told about the trade, it just does not appeal to me. Not meant as a slur towards TG9.

I agree with Tallysame's assessment of controllers crossing over however, I think it mainly applies to those who have been controllers for a good while. Newbies would, IMHO, be able to cross over as they are still fresh from the training system.

As it goes, I honestly think that, if anything, they will merge the branches and open a joint school. Those who enter the gates will be assessed during a foundation course and then streamed accordingly.

It is a possibility. Airmen Aircrew training is now completely modulised and as a result, a WSOp (ALM) could easily be retrained as a WSOP (AEOp). It allows manpower to be allocated into the right areas. Too many AEOps at Kinloss? Push a few through cranwell & help ot the ALMs on the SH fleet...

That is the whole idea about the new system.

The biggest grind about those entering the WC world from ATC is the fact that they are heading straight for the E3. Whilst I wish the current student the very best of luck, I feel that the Sentry course may be alot to ask someone who will have very limited WC experience by the time they start at Waddo.

I wouldn't even think of applying for a few years after hopefully checking out as I know what is expected on the jet.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I have to say that we are already quite well committed to OOA dets if you add them all up & compare them to spare manpower within the trade.

1ACC
16AAB
RAP TROOP
JALC
C-RAM (set to increase)
FIADGE
E3 tasking

There are more than a few SACs who have volunteered for driving duties in both sandy theatres too.

How many posts is that, as in how many are OOA now? What is your trade manning now? What is your OOA turnaround?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

How many posts is that, as in how many are OOA now? What is your trade manning now? What is your OOA turnaround?

The OOA turnaround is largely dependent on rank and qualifications. C-RAM is starting to bite at Cpl level, especially with the time involved in the initial operator training. I am losing one of my Cpls for around 8 months to this project alone.

Some of the other dets are formed units and as yet have not asked for outside support (16AAB are working the same turnaround as the rest of the Brigade in Herrick). 1ACC regularly take ERS personnel with them to support their ongoing commitment.

Yes we are overborne at SAC level and this I feel is the major driver. We have a bite at Cpl and Sgt for certain specialisations (my ops qual is a 6 month training course before released into the real world!) so this causes other shortages with no training margin allowed.

Lets let these lads get into posts and receive the welcome that I am sure the FOA/Ms will give them then see how we fare from then.

If it increases the OOA opportunities for my SACs then they will be happy, as I am sure the FOAs will be if we increase their OOA turnaround time.

Our "peacetime task" (Military Task 2.4 for those who want to look it up) will always exist no matter how many people are off in sandy places, therefore it will always need a specific number of people to support that. We are one of the few trades directly involved in this 24/7/365.

 

[Fearless Leader]

I have to say that we are already quite well committed to OOA dets if you add them all up & compare them to spare manpower within the trade.

1ACC
16AAB
RAP TROOP
JALC
C-RAM (set to increase)
FIADGE
E3 tasking

There are more than a few SACs who have volunteered for driving duties in both sandy theatres too.

I would totally disagree mate, apart from the Falklands the other committments you have listed are formed units whose job it is to go OOA. That's point one!

Point two, they are not on as short a turnround as some trades in the RAF and it is something I am totally ashamed of. When I was down south recently, I was talking to people who had done operational tours in the previous 18 months and were likely to go away again upon their return from MPA. You can't compare FIADGE with things like HERRICK and TELIC.

And point 3, the reasons why some of those SACs are volunteering for 'any-trade' dets is more complex than meets the eye and in my opinion points to a malaise that exists within the trade group and especially within the 2 CRCs.

And to give you a straight answer Salty, it's averaging 4 to 5 years for Sgts in the scopie trade and we still have people who kick and scream when it's their turn. A close friend was DWRd and brought forward almost to his tour date within a fortnight because of people dropping out. I was brought forward to my reserve date and I think the other 3 Sgts I was in theatre with were all brought forward also.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

At Sgt level we are at 14-16 months!

 

[Hmmmm]

I've watched this argument for, oooooh, 20 years or so. Traditionally, wg cdrs in both spcialisations have protected their sacred cows; I now detect a change of attitude. Looking at the facts, it just makes sense (or as Toni Bliar would have said "It's just the right thing to do"). TG9 SAC 'Real' FMDL is about 60% and I understand that TG12 is about 134%. OK, there are pinch points but in reality there is more flex in one area than the other.

Having worked in both environments, there is a lot of overlap between the two TGs, especially in the 'ops room' environment. (Indeed, the best cuppa I have ever had was made by a Scopie)DT_Xtremez_30: Looking ahead, the quick dets of guys to the area radar units will tell us a lot. If it works, then maybe we have made progress. At the same time, the ATC controller experiment at SFC will certainly demonstrate intent. Interestingly, I understand that the original plan was only to plonk a couple in the CRC but at the same time Waddo made an unrelated request for air traffikers in the back of the Jet.

Personally, I'm all for it. I'm sure there will still be specialist areas but, most importantly, we should have one identity. Time to make sure prejudice disappears and is only replaced by healthy banter.

PS. You lot can get your thieving hands off our Predator slots!!DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

PS. You lot can get your thieving hands off our Predator slots!!DT_Xtremez_06:

Yeah, what he says!!!

PS for at least 3 Years

 

[Never Alert]

I would totally disagree mate, apart from the Falklands the other committments you have listed are formed units whose job it is to go OOA. That's point one!

All of whom require ERS backing for ever roulement.

Agree with what you are getting at however, lets not forget that we are involved in all three theatres and that there are plenty of lads out there from both the trade and branch.