ATC/FOA Amalgamation

[NotAnIDOYet]

If I had some to spare, I most probably would.................

Feeling your pain my friend! Would be a good option if the situation would allow though!

 

[Napoli1881]

Agreed on the meaning of streaming for us too. Happens for SAC/Cpl going for SNCO FC and for SNCO ASMs to guage suitability for IDO duties. Shouldn't be too hard for a streaming board to include ATC in the mix. SAC/Cpls applying for SNCO FC have to take the FC test battery at OASC as it is, would imagine the scores required for ATC are somewhere in the same ballpark.

At the SAC FOA/ASOP level there is some crossover in jobs, SAC ASOPs do have knowledge of NOTAMS etc but as an end user rather than producing them. Similarly we have dealings with flight plans and the like. Cross training SACs should not pose too much of a problem IMHO. It is at J/SNCO level that some things can become more specialised (even for non-controllers) but the "new breed" super-scopie (for want of a better term) that an amalgamation would produce would eventually be able to progress onwards. In the words of SAKS (wish they still existed!!), "A trained man can..."

If this was a Utopian vision we would all be cross trained and able to do each other's jobs now. This is not the case and it would not be a surprise to me if, post amalgamation, the new SACs fly through the ranks (sure to put some noses out of joint!).

The key is more knowledge and less suspicions. FOMz & SSH, if you want to send some of your youngsters up here for a couple of days then give me a shout and I will arrange and host them. Similarly I hope the invitation could be reciprocated from the FOA/M world to give us all a better understanding of what the others do!

Doesn't Boulmer run Airspace User Courses for us TG9 bods? I'm sure that getting people from our side of the fence to attend more of those would be beneficial to both trades - similarly, we could arrange for TG12 personnel to attend a course at Shawbury to explain how we deal with NOTAMS, etc - possibly at TTF?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Doesn't Boulmer run Airspace User Courses for us TG9 bods? I'm sure that getting people from our side of the fence to attend more of those would be beneficial to both trades - similarly, we could arrange for TG12 personnel to attend a course at Shawbury to explain how we deal with NOTAMS, etc - possibly at TTF?

Napoli I believe you are quite correct in this assumption. This came about when the FOA types needed training in ATO/ACO stuff for Telic/Herrick. I think we will end up with a 2-school system unless finds can be found for an all singing and dancing establishment.

The ASACS Future Basing study hasn't been published yet so we are unsure of where we will be operating from post 2012, let alone where our training will be carried out from. Scampton was the early contender but asbestos, coupled with English Heritage made that not viable from a financial POV. Conningsby is another favourite but is there enough land for a CRC and Training School? Leeming would be a good bet after the F3's get their P45s but your guess is as good as mine!

Bespoke courses at both schools would be the short term option, this is what I think the first batch of willing volunteers we are "lending" you should be looking at, however as relatively junior SACs they are maybe not the best people to be producing TNAs and Job Scalars. Once again TG12 has done something on the back of a fag packet and will expect our junior personnel to "make the best" of it. Nothing has changed in this respect over the last 18 years so I expect no different now.

BTW I was part of a team that looked at this very subject less than 3 years ago to be told it definately was not a goer! How times change when numbers dictate!

Fellow TG 12 people, please let your thoughts be known on here instead of a few of us hijacking the thread.

 

[Napoli1881]

Napoli I believe you are quite correct in this assumption. This came about when the FOA types needed training in ATO/ACO stuff for Telic/Herrick. I think we will end up with a 2-school system unless finds can be found for an all singing and dancing establishment.

The ASACS Future Basing study hasn't been published yet so we are unsure of where we will be operating from post 2012, let alone where our training will be carried out from. Scampton was the early contender but asbestos, coupled with English Heritage made that not viable from a financial POV. Conningsby is another favourite but is there enough land for a CRC and Training School? Leeming would be a good bet after the F3's get their P45s but your guess is as good as mine!

Bespoke courses at both schools would be the short term option, this is what I think the first batch of willing volunteers we are "lending" you should be looking at, however as relatively junior SACs they are maybe not the best people to be producing TNAs and Job Scalars. Once again TG12 has done something on the back of a fag packet and will expect our junior personnel to "make the best" of it. Nothing has changed in this respect over the last 18 years so I expect no different now.
BTW I was part of a team that looked at this very subject less than 3 years ago to be told it definately was not a goer! How times change when numbers dictate!

There you go - ours trades are already heading towards jointery!! There was talk about the trades amagamating when i was at Boulmer, but I thought that was from the Scopies side of the fence! That said the grass is definately a shade or two browner in TG9 at the moment!

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

There you go - ours trades are already heading towards jointery!! There was talk about the trades amagamating when i was at Boulmer, but I thought that was from the Scopies side of the fence! That said the grass is definately a shade or two browner in TG9 at the moment!

We just want the nicer postings and the chance of seing daylight!

The bit earlier about eating our young is simply not true, we are not usually that fussy, young or old, we don't care!

 

[Napoli1881]

Based in Ops at Aldergrove at the minute - view out of the Ops Room window over Loch Neagh & towards the Sperrin Mountains!!

Only down side is that you only get to see that view for a couple of days during the Summer, in between showers!

 

[Cottie]

The Canadians have, I think within the last 6 years (I didn't ask when, but one of the guys has only been in six years) have amalgamated their versions of Scopies and FOAs.

From what they tell me it caused a lot of problems, I get the feeling more from socialogical reasons than technical or admin reasons.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

The Canadians have, I think within the last 6 years (I didn't ask when, but one of the guys has only been in six years) have amalgamated their versions of Scopies and FOAs.

From what they tell me it caused a lot of problems, I get the feeling more from socialogical reasons than technical or admin reasons.

Did their Scopies lead a troglodyte existance? That is what makes us intollerent of others, we never normally have to deal with them!

 

[Napoli1881]

The Canadians have, I think within the last 6 years (I didn't ask when, but one of the guys has only been in six years) have amalgamated their versions of Scopies and FOAs.

From what they tell me it caused a lot of problems, I get the feeling more from socialogical reasons than technical or admin reasons.

Aw, come one - Scopies aren't that bad!! I even know some that can use a knive & fork and have a semi-adult conversation...

...without all that '3rd man in the cock-pit' stuff!!

 

[Cottie]

Did their Scopies lead a troglodyte existance? That is what makes us intollerent of others, we never normally have to deal with them!

Not too sure, the ones I have met were an air traffiker and the other a Scopie, both are quite amiable.

Anyway why the hurry to get into Predator slots?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Aw, come one - Scopies aren't that bad!! I even know some that can use a knive & fork and have a semi-adult conversation...

...without all that '3rd man in the cock-pit' stuff!![/quote]

Purely a fighter controller saying, real scopies would never be so w@nky would we?

 

[Napoli1881]

Not too sure, the ones I have met were an air traffiker and the other a Scopie, both are quite amiable.

Anyway why the hurry to get into Predator slots?

One of my SAC's has just been told she's off to Predator on November - surprisingly enough, she hasn't stopped talking about it!!



Scopies are a good bunch of guys all said - my Flt Lt over here is an ex-Scopie Wobbly, and 5yrs on SAR at Boulmer has probably 'turned' me somewhat!!

Many a nights partaking (is that even a word?) in alcoholic beverages in The Dukes with the likes of Big Booey (before he PVR'd) may have clouded my judgement though!

 

[Napoli1881]

Aw, come one - Scopies aren't that bad!! I even know some that can use a knive & fork and have a semi-adult conversation...

...without all that '3rd man in the cock-pit' stuff!![/quote]

Purely a fighter controller saying, real scopies would never be so w@nky would we?

Agree on you with that one - the one time I actually heard it said was by a very junior officer in the Officer's Mess at Boulmer one night (202 Sqn aircrew 'smuggled' me in) - and he was talking to OC A at the time - who happened to be the most decorated man in the RAF!! - FAUX PAS doesn't really cover it!!

(Cue 202 Sqn aircrew giggling like school-girls while OC A politely informs said FC who he actually has was...!!)

 

[Cottie]

Purely a fighter controller saying, real scopies would never be so w@nky would we?

Theres a misquote that I've heard from real scopies mouths, though.DT_Xtremez_28:

Whose gonna be organising a junket to Canada to 'study' their issues and problems?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Theres a misquote that I've heard from real scopies mouths, though.DT_Xtremez_28:

Whose gonna be organising a junket to Canada to 'study' their issues and problems?

I think it will have to be me, previous experience and all that!!DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Never Alert]

Aw, come one - Scopies aren't that bad!! I even know some that can use a knive & fork and have a semi-adult conversation...

...without all that '3rd man in the cock-pit' stuff!![/quote]

Purely a fighter controller saying, real scopies would never be so w@nky would we?

You don't expect me to bite on a Saturday mate, do you???

 

[TallySame!]

...without all that '3rd man in the cock-pit' stuff!!

Purely a fighter controller saying, real scopies would never be so w@nky would we?

Ew, no would never say anything quite so...pretentious.

Admittedley though, I do the hand thing....spot the Weapons FC...doing all sorts of wavey stuff with their hands....I'm ashamed :|

" and then they did this (wavey swooping hand motion) and then this (flapping motion) and then they did that (more extravagent hand motions)"

So very very sorry :|

...if you ever see me doing this, you're free to break my arms...a certain drunk act....

 

[Datalink Squirrel]

OK, this is all good stuff and has been hanging around for quite a few years. My view is that is inevitable and it's a wonder nothing was done earlier but, hey-ho!
The only fly in the ointment, as has been pointed out, is each trade's view of the other. To give an example, on my GST1, GST 2 courses in '84 and '89 there were 3 AATC types with me and one other Scopie. As soon as they heard about us Scopies, they just screwed up their noses as if we were dog-wotsits on the pavement. The best thing we did was to ignore them as the rest of the courses soon realised how pathetic they were - even though I pointed out that it is not typical of the majority of AATC, as I knew others through Eastern & Highland ATRCUs.
Embrace the chuffing idea and get on with it, ASA bluddy P! And if some don't like it, declare them Crash Cat 5 and get rid.
And, no, I didn't have some brain cells removed to become an IDROid - but he still writes good sense!DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Cottie]

OK, this is all good stuff and has been hanging around for quite a few years. My view is that is inevitable and it's a wonder nothing was done earlier but, hey-ho!
The only fly in the ointment, as has been pointed out, is each trade's view of the other. To give an example, on my GST1, GST 2 courses in '84 and '89 there were 3 AATC types with me and one other Scopie. As soon as they heard about us Scopies, they just screwed up their noses as if we were dog-wotsits on the pavement. The best thing we did was to ignore them as the rest of the courses soon realised how pathetic they were - even though I pointed out that it is not typical of the majority of AATC, as I knew others through Eastern & Highland ATRCUs.
Embrace the chuffing idea and get on with it, ASA bluddy P! And if some don't like it, declare them Crash Cat 5 and get rid.
And, no, I didn't have some brain cells removed to become an IDROid - but he still writes good sense!DT_Xtremez_30:

I agree.

It would be far better for all that we accept the change and do our best to make it as smooth as possible and advantageous to all. Anyone who shows animosity to airmen from the other trade should be shunned by all. The fact is that we where all recruited from the same populations.

The only downside is that I will miss out on some of the banter with the FOAs/ex that I know.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

I agree.

It would be far better for all that we accept the change and do our best to make it as smooth as possible and advantageous to all. Anyone who shows animosity to airmen from the other trade should be shunned by all. The fact is that we where all recruited from the same populations.

The only downside is that I will miss out on some of the banter with the FOAs/ex that I know.

All previous FOA/M/ATC types will still be gayers thus open to all kinds of banter when we steal their jobs!! (FOMz, my tongue is firmly in my cheek at this stage!!)