ATC/FOA Amalgamation

[FOMz]

Funny you should mention that, because I once did a scopies job and thought it was a bag of old w@nk, but don't go posting it on forums...............................fook!

Not a really helpful comment that DI. Its cocknoshers like you with comments like that, that will make this possible amalgamation harder.

 

[Datalink Squirrel]

SSH. Was a bit puzzled why you sounded upset earlier. Got me crystal ball out and reviewed the past. Got it! Did you think I meant Scopies helped out by actually controlling (hence reference to validation)? Nay, nay, nay!
There were days when your assistants were short-manned and 1 or 2 Scopies went along to assist with the other stuff, e.g. shuffling flight strips about, getting AF Wx - as ADDC always seemed to be slack at times. The more experienced ones seemed to be where it was busiest, getting the potties for your busiest controllers and wiping thier... Sorry, I jest there.
As this was public, I apologise for the earlier remark here and am in the process of counselling myself rather severely.
DT_Xtremez_05:
Take note DI, you should always allow the growbags room to manuevre, let them be a bunch of .******
they're not worth wasting your time.

 

[FOMz]

I'm sure SSH won't be crying into his p1ss water american beer DS.

I once got a cup of tea from a scopie - hate to say it, but it was fcuking awful. Something for you course design team to look at there I think!! DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Datalink Squirrel]

Rather like the coffee I got from the canteen/restaurant at WD. Huh! Studying the biscuits tray, I heard a voice say "Yes, please?"
I said, "Mm, yeah. Black Coffee, please." Then looked up and saw this rather large Carribean lady who then scowled at me and said loudly, "BLACK coffee?"
I could only nod and make a sound something like "Mm, Hmm."
My companions thought I was taking the p### as it sounded like the Carribean "Uh huh, man."
Try getting out of that. For the remainder of the time I was in there, she kept on searching for me then giving me "the look" that I came to be familiar with when I got married years later.
And the coffee was very weak - yuk!

 

[HotspurIDO]

Funny you should mention that, because I once did a scopies job and thought it was a bag of old w@nk, but don't go posting it on forums...............................fook!

Each to their own. Was merely making the point that not all tragic jobs are as great as some of TG12 think they are, it's not all swanning around in landrovers bollocking people for driving too fast on the taxiways.

Not a really helpful comment that DI. Its cocknoshers like you with comments like that, that will make this possible amalgamation harder.

Not a bad thing if it means I won't have to work with aggresive fcukwits like you. 'cocknosher'? what fantastically imaginative 'banter'. Tit.

 

[FOMz]

Oh dear, If I've upset you senseabilities DI...........I couldn't care less. You old son, are half the problem with your very narrow minded view. 'Tragic' says it all. With that in mind, it will make an amalgamation all the harder.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

SSH. Was a bit puzzled why you sounded upset earlier. Got me crystal ball out and reviewed the past. Got it! Did you think I meant Scopies helped out by actually controlling (hence reference to validation)? Nay, nay, nay!
There were days when your assistants were short-manned and 1 or 2 Scopies went along to assist with the other stuff, e.g. shuffling flight strips about, getting AF Wx - as ADDC always seemed to be slack at times. The more experienced ones seemed to be where it was busiest, getting the potties for your busiest controllers and wiping thier... Sorry, I jest there.
As this was public, I apologise for the earlier remark here and am in the process of counselling myself rather severely.
DT_Xtremez_05:
Take note DI, you should always allow the growbags room to manuevre, let them be a bunch of .******
they're not worth wasting your time.

Ah, I see now, you were a book reader in the Civvy Ops Room. Helpedthe LJAO assistant out with his onerous job eh?

Right... Back to this pi$$ poor American beer

 

[HotspurIDO]

Oh dear, If I've upset you senseabilities DI...........I couldn't care less. You old son, are half the problem with your very narrow minded view. 'Tragic' says it all. With that in mind, it will make an amalgamation all the harder.

Oh put your toys back in your cot love, yeh you'll find any of this 'amalgamation' difficult if you're going to be an over-sensetive drama queen about 'tragic'. Good grief, get over yourself. Trades have their psudonyms, so what? I dont see the rockapes, shiny arses, dog fcukers, fairies etc getting upset, and I certainly don't go wetting my pants every time I hear 'scope dope'.

What is going to feed any bad feeling as we look at possible cross-pollenation of our trades is dinosaurs kicking off and handing out the insults instead of listening to reason and debating like grown-ups. Still, maybe they wont be so abrasive when we're forced to work together without an internet forum to hide behind.

Preconceptions and closed minds will also breed ill feeling, such as writing someone's view off as 'very narrow minded' when they have barely even voiced their opinion. So, for the record here goes, and when I've finished if you still choose to think I'm narrow minded then that's fair enough, at least you'll have been courteous enough to read what I think.

I'm not vehemently against a coming together of trades, but unlike many of my colleagues I'm not embracing the idea like a favourite aunt. Many TG12ers can't see past the fact that this has the potential to open up postings galore, which it might, but the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I've been around a bit and worked with TG9 in the past, and as I said earlier even tried my hand at it, I know that there are TG9 jobs out there that I would not enjoy doing, and get no satisfaction from. Should I find myself posted to such a job in the future I would most certainly carefully consider my future with the Service ... it's simply not what I joined up to do. The flip side of that is I'm sure we do jobs that would send FOA/FOMs into a coma, despite many similarities the two trades are vastly different.

Lets not forget that this time around, this push for some kind of amalgamation seems to be coming from the TG9 side due to a manning crisis. You cannot blame anyone on our side of the fence for being cautious with the potential to work for management that so obviously leave much to be desired to let such a crisis happen in the first place.

This smells like a quick fix, due to a stupidly quick turn round of OOA dets for your lot. the 14-18 month turn round for SNCOs is harsh, but will swelling your ranks with ASMs really help? One of the real contributing factors behind the frequency of dets for SNCOs is the number of fat wheezy boys with notes from matron that are still around, the ones who's backs spasm everytime they hear DWR. Believe me, we've all got more than our fair share of the twisted sock brigade, and until that problem is faced head on Service wide then the situation will never improve. Now I'm not tarring everyone with a low MES with the same brush here, I have friends chomping at the bit to go OOA but can't. It's the shirkers that hide behind convenient MESs that are causing the problems ... you know the one's that are miraculously cured when they hear they've made the PSL.

With some joined-up adult thinking and common sense, maybe the idea of some kind of amalgamation has some mileage, but personally I shall remain cautious and watch with interest. I'm yet to be convinced it marks the dawning of a brave new golden age like some would have us believe.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

It's the shirkers that hide behind convenient MESs that are causing the problems ... you know the one's that are miraculously cured when they hear they've made the PSL.

The PSL does not miraculously cure you, you may be promoted but with conditions, like no offer of further service. PMA (Med) will look at all cases as necessary, if you want more details from one who has been through that mill then feel free to contact me either on here or at work!

I would happily go OOA if my med cat allowed me to, however if I am fit to go then surely I am fit to sign on!

That is however an entirely seperate issue to the one we are discussing here.

 

[Hmmmm]

DI, good morning.

Whilst I agree with some of your sentiments, you are incorrect in some of your assumptions.

Firstly, TG9 is in a parlous state because of the cpl/SAC ratio (1:1). This is due to numerous stns, sqns etc (ordinarily run by our pilot bretheren) over-egging posts; we have so many cpls doing SAC jobs it is unbelievable. Despite numerous efforts by Trade Sponsors, many units have decided to do nothing about this.

You recognise that there are jobs on both sides of the house that are boring/tedious/'not what I joined up for'. I guess that's the RAF and if they chose to make you a chef you would also be able you find good and bad.

You speculate that the most recent 'coming together' is driven by TG9 feeling the pinch. Wrong. It is driven by this and the vulnerability felt by the ASACS organisation when the RAF is struggling to get down to 40 780 personnel and there are CRC crewrooms full of under-employed TG12 SACs kicking their heels (maybe a bit of an exagerration but you get my point).

Sickies and OOA. I'm in management and I don't detect this in TG9. Indeed, almost without exception our people are keen to go on ops; this includes our single mothers, of which we have many DT_Xtremez_17: Turnaround for cpl/SAC is currently about 2.5 to 3 years. Sgt FOMs are taking more hits but again I do not recollect any major trend in sick-chits.

I agree that we shouldn't rush headlong into things (just look at the Flt Ops fiasco) and, to me, this is all the more reason to have mature conversation at all levels. Maybe an anonymous forum like E-Goat is exactly the wrong place to enter a dialogue where we all run the risk of being called 'cocknoshers'.

 

[HotspurIDO]

Thanks for that Hmmmm, I had no idea that your rank pyramid was as f*cked up as ours. I did see a presentation recently that told me the ratios for TG12 but with a memory like a sieve I can't recall them exactly, but at all levels they were far from healthy.

You mention the CRCs 'full' of underemployed SACs. I'm glad you did, because this is a misconception that widely believed, most damagingly by those within TG12. On paper, yes, we've got plenty, and when things are quiet the crewroom gets full. But folk forget those on det, pre & post det leave, forced development etc. Some days it aint so rosie and we struggle for manpower. An example: Last week my flight consisted of 3 SNCOs, 4 JNCOs and 1 SAC.

Looks like we're both in a similar position with a glut of JNCOs that no-one knows what to do with?

this is all the more reason to have mature conversation at all levels. Maybe an anonymous forum like E-Goat is exactly the wrong place to enter a dialogue where we all run the risk of being called 'cocknoshers'.

You got that right, it would be great to have some sort of conference with both sides coming together to discuss all these issues like grown ups, then off to the bar afterwards to really sort things out (best ideas ALWAYS come out in the bar!)



NotAnIDOYet: I knew you'd jump on that point buddy, you're not one of the examples I was thinking of.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Like DI, I had no notion that your SAC/Cpl levels were so bad. NMS was the start of this and Stn Cdrs payed lip service to Trade Sponsors (IMHO) during this time. We had a similar situation at a CRC, now closed, near a secret Jag base and were perillously close to achieving 1:1 at one stage.

We, as it sounds like you have, a reluctance to downrank jobs as new technology makes life easier. I was visiting the said CRC as part of a review to hear the comment "Well that's another 20 SACs I can get rid of" from one of the unit management. As a mere Cpl at the time I was not in a position to speak up in the forum I was in (anyone who knows me may make the correct guess that I did though!) but there were others present who shared my views, although we could only make recommendations to the unit.

Part of the problem is the issue of empowerment. We all like to bandy the word about but very few of us actually practise it. In my current job I came up with a suggestion to reallocate responsibilities amongst my team, turning my job into the management role that the allocated rank (Sgt/FS/JO) says it should be. I got shot down and nothing has changed (I was even part of the team that did the TNA!). Parochialsim is what is killing both trades. In your world, aircrew dont seem to trust anyone that is not an NCO. Our side is slowly gettting better in some areas but it is a long process.

Hmmm, believe it or not I started this thread to engage in some intelligent debate on issues that affect our trades. It has taken some time (14 pages), but we finally seem to have achieved this. I was serious about arranging visits to your place and FOMz's. This will certainly increase MY knowledge of what you guys do, let alone the rest of my flight's. If you can PM me a name to contact so I can arrange things then that would be wonderful.

 

[FOMz]

NAIDYO, as I said mate, you know where I am and we're more than happy to host you for a day, so pick up the phone.

I personally can't see that much 'cross pollination' at the SNCO level to be honest, best start it at the SAC level where its desperately needed and can be monitered and used as building blocks for the future. AS for the OOA dets, as stated before - the SNCO turn around is being addressed by WO TG9; who's been out and about and I am led to believe has identified a couple of FOM slots in theater to be dis-established, which will ease the OOA turn around burden. Most of the time its not the actual FOM that is going OOA again doing the complaining, thats happeneing at section level and from the 'silent majority' at home (or in some cases - not so silent!)

 

[Hmmmm]

You got that right, it would be great to have some sort of conference with both sides coming together to discuss all these issues like grown ups, then off to the bar afterwards to really sort things out (best ideas ALWAYS come out in the bar!)

There's one at Shrivenham on Thu/Fri but I don't know how far things will get in this environment.

NAnIDOYet, Boss is on side and aware that someone may call him.

 

[HotspurIDO]

NAIDYO, as I said mate, you know where I am and we're more than happy to host you for a day, so pick up the phone.

I personally can't see that much 'cross pollination' at the SNCO level to be honest, best start it at the SAC level where its desperately needed and can be monitered and used as building blocks for the future.

I agree with that sentiment, I look forward to four months time when the first FOA employed Scopies come home and tell us what they think. I understand that we are shortly to be deploying a few more your way to other units. I hope that they are all de-briefed thoroughly along with the FOMs for which they work and a sensible working plan for the future worked out on those findings. As long as our Lords and Masters steer clear of thinking of the solution as one of simple arithmetic this may be a way forward, will they listen to those at the coal face? I guess we'll find out in time.

 

[FOMz]

Yup, Totally agree DI. As long as the ASOPs sent our way are employed across the trade and not in little clumps at certain units or in a certain region. That way your guys will get see a lot more of what we do and where we do it. There's a lot more to TG9 than answering the Switchboard in a tower in Lincolnshire.

 

[Datalink Squirrel]

Aye, and as long as those SACs don't go with wrong ideas about TG9 (hopefully the selection process is positive!) and are able to give a coherent brief and debrief of their experiences.
Oh, dear! I must sound like an Int O! DT_Xtremez_42:

Speaking of which, the Int O I served with was so popular with his demeanour, the FCs gave him a nickname - Minto. Miserable Int Officer.

SSH. What's wrong with reading books? Oh, you mean the filthy magazines! JD Whitehouse, Mayfair Air non-Clues, Flight International Fiesta, Air International Playboys...

 

[POB]

I agree with that sentiment, I look forward to four months time when the first FOA employed Scopies come home and tell us what they think. I understand that we are shortly to be deploying a few more your way to other units. I hope that they are all de-briefed thoroughly along with the FOMs for which they work and a sensible working plan for the future worked out on those findings. As long as our Lords and Masters steer clear of thinking of the solution as one of simple arithmetic this may be a way forward, will they listen to those at the coal face? I guess we'll find out in time.

And as long as we don't put them in the sh!t jobs for 4 months! They need to be looked after too, so as not to go back calling us all wasters etc, 'cos if their post loan comments are bad, it may never get any further...

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

What POB said having wrote the same thing!

Doh

 

[FOMz]

Well, if we have to put bids in for them - can I have two for my section???

AT Ops would be a fantastic place for them to come to.