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ATC/FOA Amalgamation

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Well, the FOMs (TG9 non controllers) work in many many areas. The traditional roles of ATC FOM (does all the admin and so much more for the tower and man manages all the FOA's in the tower) The Ops FOM, does much the same - but in Ops. Then we have people in jobs like Group Ops, Sation Ops, Sqn Ops, Mission Planning, Mission Support, Task Planning, Flight Planning, On the Oggy Sqns, Predator flight, emabassies, CAOCs - the list goes on and on and on.

The problem is - very few of the jobs are alike - all different. Unlike, I feel the IDO role where it seems to be roughly the same where ever you are sitting.
 
FOMz said:
Well, the FOMs (TG9 non controllers) work in many many areas. The traditional roles of ATC FOM (does all the admin and so much more for the tower and man manages all the FOA's in the tower) The Ops FOM, does much the same - but in Ops. Then we have people in jobs like Group Ops, Sation Ops, Sqn Ops, Mission Planning, Mission Support, Task Planning, Flight Planning, On the Oggy Sqns, Predator flight, emabassies, CAOCs - the list goes on and on and on.

The problem is - very few of the jobs are alike - all different. Unlike, I feel the IDO role where it seems to be roughly the same where ever you are sitting.
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True FOMz, a couple of years ago the then Trade Sponsor wanted to concentrate the trade, particularly at SNCO level, on "Core Business". We do other things, the equipment will change from place to place and you will also find us in most of the places you list above. We have people in CAOCs, Mission Support (WA), Mission Sims, Mission Planning, JFACCHQ and the like. The reason for the change of focus was to pull us out of jobs where maybe 1 person got a lot of training and became very hard to replace. I still feel there is a lot of crossover, even more than I thought as SNCO level now you have given us all this information. It is all a matter of training and exposure to task.
 
Looking at your post we seem to have a few jobs with the same job title - its just that they mean completely different things!!!!!!

Mission Planning to me means something COMPLETELY different to what I think you allude to. Unless you guys are JetPlan trained and can thread a Herc through European airspace at FL110 when its payload and fuel critical.

See what I mean?

Whats needed is for you guys to climb out of your holes and come and have a look around at what we do and vice versa.

More importantly at SAC level at the moment though.
 
NotAnIDOYet said:
We have people in CAOCs, Mission Support (WA), Mission Sims, Mission Planning, JFACCHQ and the like. The reason for the change of focus was to pull us out of jobs where maybe 1 person got a lot of training and became very hard to replace. I still feel there is a lot of crossover, even more than I thought as SNCO level now you have given us all this information. It is all a matter of training and exposure to task.
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There sure is a lot of crossover. Interpretation of Met/NOTAMs/ATO/ACO etc. We don't really get involved in ROE type things...But to prove the point the guys on Harrier Sqns need to have a good level of understanding of them.

One of the problems I have, and I am sure it is the same the world over, is the way "we" use job titles. A very apposite case in point is "Mission Planning" the title of my last role, and the one that FOMz is currently filling. Mission Planning at what was Coltishall involved detailas of NOTAMs and assisting the crews, including breaking out the Frag. Mission Planning at Lossie was (please correct me if I am wrong) similar to a traditional Flight Planning job. MP at Lyneham is still dealing with the crews, face to face briefings etc, but requires a whole new level of knowledge of the civilian ATC and airways structure. It also had decision making, for the aircrew, based on a level of knowledge and interpretation of GASO's, (Go/No go calls, Crew duty/divs and fuel weights/) which can and does have a direct impact on the way C130 flights around the world are conducted. I hope this helps a little.

As from the ATC/FOM routes through the trade. Essentially, once sellected for Controller training, and on passing the course, you will generally be posted to a tower for terminal control duties. As a FOM (from Sgt), a traditionally "admin" type support role used to await. Nowadays, with the focus on OOA, these SNCOs find themselves doing all manner of jobs that don't quite fall into anyone elses fomal role. We speak "aircrew" and "engineer" and are very often a link between the two (generally "Ops").

I have just re-read this and I am confusing mysel now! As you can, I hope, see, FOMs are employed all over the RAF doing many different roles. Unfortunately, (and I suspect like TG12 roles) many are too sensitive to discuss openly. Perhaps we should have a get together to thrash out some of the more common ground.

I have missed bits, I have abridged, but if you need more please ask. Thanks for explaining your trade set up...I am getting there!
 
That's because FOMZ Mission Planning to us involves planning for ops using something like ICC in either a CAOC or on JFAC. That ties in with ATO production, ACO production and then from there the Mission execution. Scopies might not necessarily do a lot of that directly as it might be the aircrew in a CAOC doing that. But it's scopies overseeing the ICC database and ensuring the ACM requests are actioned and cycled in to the next issue of the ACO.

My counterpart from the Belgian AF who worked at CAOC2 worked in the Casevac cell in Kabul during his 3 stints on ISAF, and Fred was a Belgian scopie.

Some of the jobs I failed to mention as I didn't want to get too tangled up in specifics. But we have guys in Mission Briefing at Waddington who directly support the crews on the E3D and go on dets with the jet. That's providing a better service than the guys who used to work in what was then OSS back in Apr 90 when 8 Sqn was relocating - who were all TG17! When Gulf War 1 kicked off they could probably do a nice job of filing the documents but they were clueless as to how to go about producing a map. In fact I can remember doing my Sec and Int course at Ashford and over half the course were adminers working in ops support jobs at airfields. It's because of clueless paper clip counters like that, who didn't know their UTM from Georef that the Flight Ops branch was created. Adminers are great at admin but they shouldn't have been working in Stn, Wing or Sqn Ops - hence why your trade came about.

And on a tangent I forgot to mention our guys at Fylingdales earlier, who are probably the only scopies still doing a job that bears a resemblance to what it was like when I joined up in Jan 87. And of course even their job's evolving with the times and new equipment.
 
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FOMz said:
Looking at your post we seem to have a few jobs with the same job title - its just that they mean completely different things!!!!!!

Mission Planning to me means something COMPLETELY different to what I think you allude to. Unless you guys are JetPlan trained and can thread a Herc through European airspace at FL110 when its payload and fuel critical.

See what I mean?

Whats needed is for you guys to climb out of your holes and come and have a look around at what we do and vice versa.

More importantly at SAC level at the moment though.
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Less than 40% of the trade are employed in "Holes" (unless foxholes count!)

Can your TS team put together a roadshow and come up (would spread the news to the maximum number of people)

Our guys currently on loan to you had no idea of what they were going to do until they got there!
 
Fearless Leader said:
hence why your trade came about.
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Right, stop right there matey, stop right fcuking there. You are under the impression that I'm a fcuking Ops Officer? - say that again and I'll kick yer teeth down yer throat. You can go off people so fcuking quickly you know. :PDT_Xtremez_05:

The Ops Spt branch was created to release the winged master race back to their primary roles. In the 20 odd years I've been kicking around, I have never come in contact with a scribbly fulfiling an Ops Job - EVER!!!!!!

Ops Wing registry does not count.

FL - I've sat here and read all the TG12/Ops Spt (FC) stuff and absorbed alot of it - you on the other hand still seem pretty ignorant of the TG9/Ops Spt (ATC/Air Ops) branch set up.
 
I never thought I was an expert, I just know what I saw when I was at Waddo in MSW and the TG17 who were doing what I thought of as Ops jobs. But you should take up NAIDOY on his offer, or we come down for a visit. Beats visiting some of the drongo places they suugest for FD.

I had to argue with my Flt Cdr about the IWN North being in Manchester for one FD proposal. He was convinced it was Birmingham, he only shut the f**k up when I told him I was born there and had visited the said museum!!! That's the kind of mentality we have to deal with as our bosses. So please bear in mind FOMZ we're under pressure here! Lol.

But I was definitely on my Q-SEC-INT course with adminers who were working in Sqn Ops at several places. They were about as operational as a teabag. The course was a few years ago so it's probably been superseded.
 
Oh FL, please stop digging your own hole. I'm sure that the TG9 guys would love to visit your chaps up in the bunker. However I think you may find it equally enlightening to re-visit an airfield (you know, those big flat places with noisy things floating about the sky) and have a look at a few sqns, WOCs etc. After you've done that, then maybe you'll get an idea what an opsie does.

To quote an RAF Regt Gp Capt APOD cdr shortly after the airfield had been attacked "Can someone please replace those 3 muppets of Flt Ops officers with a couple of useful TG9 cpls?"
 
Hmmmm said:
Oh FL, please stop digging your own hole. I'm sure that the TG9 guys would love to visit your chaps up in the bunker. However I think you may find it equally enlightening to re-visit an airfield (you know, those big flat places with noisy things floating about the sky) and have a look at a few sqns, WOCs etc. After you've done that, then maybe you'll get an idea what an opsie does.

To quote an RAF Regt Gp Capt APOD cdr shortly after the airfield had been attacked "Can someone please replace those 3 muppets of Flt Ops officers with a couple of useful TG9 cpls?"
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That's a fair comment,
We do visit airfields on the WCC & also managed to squeeze in a trip to Swanwick (nice coffee, top totty!). I have to admit though, our airfield visit comprised of driving straight up to the Q shed & chatting 'Q' stuff with the two winged master race (the single winged master race were far too busy on the Xbox 360).

NAIDOY is spot on, lets get out and about with some planned visits on both sides of the fence.
 
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SirSaltyHelmet said:
Never in my 10 years at LATCC did anyone particularly a scopie come and help out. In order to work with Heyford and you had to hold a validation, in fact anywhere in LRAD required a validation.

By the way it was not the Upper Heyford box... It was the HeyStack
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YOU might have called it that - sounded like wrestling. WE had another name for it.
By the way, you're hooked.
 
Challenge

Challenge

FOMz/Hmmmm/SSH, I shall get the ball rolling on this one.

I am back on shift Friday and have an FD schedule to fill for the first week in September.

PM me with some telephone numbers and names and I will bring some people to your empires for a visit if at all possible.

I can reciprocate the invitation if that is at all possible for you guys.
 
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No smiley for a yawn, fellers. Best of luck on doing a job that should have been done ages ago and both TGs will be better off.
Remarks about TG17/GD Admin hold true though, some were on my Q-SEC-INT course as well, some 10 years ago. Teabags performed better!
 
I can assure you DS, that none of them were in Air Ops jobs - maybe something different - BUT NOT AIR OPS
 
Once upon a time I had to work Sqn Ops (tragic version of Ops, not as we scopies know it) ... it was hell, never again. The gucci dets are nice when they come around I guess but even they can't make up for being the aircrew's duty bitch/gopher/scapegoat. Needless to say I didn't last long, thank God.
 
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