ATC/FOA Amalgamation

[FOMz]

I don't doubt the figures that Hmmmm has put up, so - scopies...34% of yer SAC manpower please............. lets get them through TTF and on the street.

The worrying thing is - How has the ASOP trade managed to accumulate that much surplus with it: A - not being noticed and B - someone at handbrake central acutually doing something about it.

FFS - what sort of shift system are you guys working? 2 days, 2 nights 2 weeks off??? DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Fearless Leader]

FOMZ, that's the 6 million dollar question. Some of it has come about with the new kit we introduced a couple of years ago not needing as much babysitting as it the system it replaced.

However, I personally would contend, and I can already imagine what NAIDOY is going to say, that we were already on the slippery slope before that and the current situation has just exacerbated the problem.

But that's just my theory!

 

[Fearless Leader]

and yes the shift-workers 2 days, 2 nights and 4 days off, but a lot of guys are just on days mostly with some evening shifts to cover flying.

 

[Never Alert]

Get a life! I was being sarcastic, there is no way I would consider the CRC as being the sharp end.

But evidently my parochial mindset blurred my humour!!!

doesn't get any blunter than where you work!!!

 

[Never Alert]

Hmmm has an excellent point about our SAC level being a tad over the top.

Moving some of the guys to LATCC in order to alleviate some of their manning issues would surely be a win win for both trades.

Our guys are PVRing in numbers, mainly due to the fact that they are bored silly.

Spread the manpower, keep our guys interested & equally, take away some of the stress at LATCC which must be having a negative impact on morale.

Do they have a Starbucks at LATCC?

 

[Fearless Leader]

doesn't get any blunter than where you work!!!

Hey, I never claimed that where I work is sharp fella.

However, when called upon I did my second 4 months of the FI in rank which is more than some snecs in TG12 have managed!!!

But Never Alert, I think the real pressure point is OOA for the Ops people and that's where we should be helping - not propping up the teabar at LATCC so the TG9 can go out on deployment!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

OOA wise,it is at SNCO level that we are hurting with a 14-16 month turnaround. SAC level is not that bad

 

[FOMz]

Whats an SAC??? - haven't seen one of those feckers in ages........... It would be nice to have some.

Rather than just 'talking' about it, why don't the airships get off their arses and offer remusters to TG9 for your SAC's. I suspect you won't have a mass exodus - but I bet some will take it. Your FMDL drops, ours rises. Simple.

 

[Never Alert]

Whats an SAC??? - haven't seen one of those feckers in ages........... It would be nice to have some.

Rather than just 'talking' about it, why don't the airships get off their arses and offer remusters to TG9 for your SAC's. I suspect you won't have a mass exodus - but I bet some will take it. Your FMDL drops, ours rises. Simple.

Perhaps we could simply detach them onto your units and hopefull prove that amalgamation would infact work. The problem, IMHO, is that you guys will have to offer some of your guys up in order to make this a two way street.

I'm sure that there would be willing volunteers however, your manpower is clearly too much of an issue at the moment & in the short term, it would appear the the solution is simply to help your trade out with as much of our surplus as possible.

All very simplistic but hey, why does it have to be hard? Push the politics to one side & get the job done.

 

[FOMz]

Perhaps we could simply detach them onto your units and hopefull prove that amalgamation would infact work. The problem, IMHO, is that you guys will have to offer some of your guys up in order to make this a two way street.

Detaching them does not resolve your FMDL surplus........If the bean counters see your surplus and decide to act, that equates to manning cuts in TG12, which will affect everyone in the long run

Remustering solves the short and medium term TG9 problem and resolves your surplus..............which puts everyone in a better position long term when you guys eventually merge with us.

I can see you don't want to loose people, but whats the choice??? loose SAC's through PVR which hurts the RAF or loose the SAC's to remuster, we all win.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Detaching them does not resolve your FMDL surplus........If the bean counters see your surplus and decide to act, that equates to manning cuts in TG12, which will affect everyone in the long run

Remustering solves the short and medium term TG9 problem and resolves your surplus..............which puts everyone in a better position long term when you guys eventually merge with us.

I can see you don't want to loose people, but whats the choice??? loose SAC's through PVR which hurts the RAF or loose the SAC's to remuster, we all win.

Funnily enough the surplus we have at SAC rank is almost equal to the defecit we have at Cpl!! Longer term we probably all face manning cuts, that's the easiest way to reduce your defecit, disestablish the posts!! (saw it happen more than once in my previous job)

Amalgamation is probably the way ahead for all, everyone however probably needs to re-assess the manpower they have available and match it properly to the task. I know certainly in TG12 we have been spending too much time in crewrooms (major units only before Fearless Leader gets his soapbox out again!DT_Xtremez_28. This is a culture that people at my level have to eradicate. The hour on-two off is not sustainable in the beancounters eyes.

Units also have to stop taking on unestablished tasks, it was refreshing to hear a certain ATC unit refuse to provide a service to aircraft the other week due to workload. Hopefully the ASACS will follow suit. I know the stick-monkeys have to train but there have to be limits.

To answer some other comments:

SSH, OOA turnaround for certain SNCO jobs is looking at becoming around the 10-14 month mark (although this is FI). There is a lot of moss gatherers in the trade who cannot/will not deploy for whatever reason and I am sure TG9 is similar. I cannot deploy but got no further service offer on promotion, they also are tight on the med discharge front as that is too expensive.

FOMz, people can volunteer to remuster, once the tales of how well our illustrious 4 are currently being treated get back to the CRC then there may be some volunteers, hard to stop people moving out of an overmanned trade/rank!

Another option is to look at some of the OOA jobs the same way the orifices have. OSB(FC) officers are in jobs that should be OSB(Any) and are doing well, an extension of this to the airmen side should have a positive effect on TG9 manning short term. Maybe something that someone like Hmmmm could take to the TG9 sponsor!!

 

[Datalink Squirrel]

Ah yes, LATCC. Does anyone remember that once upon a time, we had a posting called ADDC/ADNC West Drayton and that very often Scopies were called in to assist LATCC due to shortfalls with their AATCs? Many's the time I heard of someone complaining about the Upper Heyford box!
So, what goes around...
And I bet there are some SACs who are bored with Boolma and would bite your hand off to remuster DT_Xtremez_29:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Ah yes, LATCC. Does anyone remember that once upon a time, we had a posting called ADDC/ADNC West Drayton and that very often Scopies were called in to assist LATCC due to shortfalls with their AATCs? Many's the time I heard of someone complaining about the Upper Heyford box!
So, what goes around...
And I bet there are some SACs who are bored with Boolma and would bite your hand off to remuster DT_Xtremez_29:

Never in my 10 years at LATCC did anyone particularly a scopie come and help out. In order to work with Heyford and you had to hold a validation, in fact anywhere in LRAD required a validation.

By the way it was not the Upper Heyford box... It was the HeyStack

 

[Hmmmm]

Hmm
Do they have a Starbucks at LATCC?

Oh yes. And with the impending move to Swanwick, the working environment will be very nice!!

NIDOY, I think the TG9 WO is looking a TG(Any) commitments as we type. A few posts back someone metioned 'just getting the job done' and from my position, I see a willingness to do that from all levels - the sacred cows are converging on a farm in Surrey! OK, there are a lot of hurdles to get over but, let's face it, almost any SAC TG12/TG9 can probably turn his/her hand to most things that are operationally (ie in spt of air ops) orientated. The answer is amagalmation but I agree that, at SNCO level, there would probably still be a need for the TG21 (12+9?) to diverge. This is something we already sort of have within TG9 with people tending to either follow an opsie or ATC route. With the introduction of DE SNCO controllers we will find that almost everyone recruited into TG9 will be an opsie. Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but maybe we should use this point to actually redefine the whole TG requirement. Unfortunately this will take time (3-5 years?) as the teachers at Halton have to get involved. In the meantime, let's just shuffle bodies where they are needed. I know our unit chose to take pain at the controller level in order to send an officer (rumour has it that we actually offered-up two but HQ Air said 'no') up to SFC for the WC course. The Boss is also keen to broaden as many people as possible and consistently insists on CRC liaison trips and attendance at TABM. I know this is relatively small fry but at least it is a start and it most certainly puts a positive message across. Oh, and all of this has to be done at no cost!!

 

[Fearless Leader]

I'm sure that there would be willing volunteers however, your manpower is clearly too much of an issue at the moment & in the short term, it would appear the the solution is simply to help your trade out with as much of our surplus as possible.

All very simplistic but hey, why does it have to be hard? Push the politics to one side & get the job done.

Exactly, waiting for something formal to happen doesn't ease the present burden. Get rid of the politics as you say Never Alert.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

14 pages in and the ATC and TG12 types are starting to agree on something!!DT_Xtremez_31:

I know my lads would welcome "Ops" OOAs as a break from just doing the FI roulement or FP duties in Herrick/Telic.

If this comes off then we are truly on the way to a harmonious union!

Hmmm, on the amalgamation front I think there is already some overlap in training objectives in the basic course. Never Alert alluded to a 3 way split at SNCO level in an earlier post and there may be some credence to this.

 

[POB]

Just to get a few things clear in my head, can one of you TG12 types briefly explain your trade structure (particularly at SNCO level)...I inderstand most of it but need a few of the TLAs explained. Why can some SNCOs only do FI?

I think the ATC/Ops split at SNCO is relatively easy to undestand, but if anyone needs it explaining...


Thank you.

 

[Fearless Leader]

OK, this may take some time! LOL.

To start off with we have SNCO Weapons Controllers (used to be Intercept Controllers if you remember that far back). You have to apply specifically for the job, you do the aptitude tests at OASC just like TG9 controllers. Tends to be SACs and Cpls, they stay at that rank when they go through training alongside Officers straight off IOT who are doing their professional training. Upon successful completion of training they are promoted to Sgt and will undergo ILMC like other Sgts who are promoted off the board. They are then technically in a different job specialisation within TG12 and have their own promotion list to FS and on to WO. Job specilisations within the WCs see them move on to Fighter Allocator and sees them do a tour on the E3D.

SNCO Identification Officers (IDOs) are a job specilisation for the 'normal' SNCO structure of TG12. Normally what happens is that either a guy is posted in to an IDO slot on promotion or upon leaving a previous tour as a non-IDO. Still with me??? This is possibly going to change in the future to 'encourage' more newly promoted Sgts to do IDO as its not seen by some to be a positive area of employment previously.

The remaining 'normal' SNCOs are employed in CRCs doing roles such as Datalinks Manager or other roles within the trade of AS Mngr. They brought in the AS Mngr name a little while ago to collectively pool all non-controller SNCOs in TG12.

As for the FI, well there are quite a few scopie SNCOs jobs now that are part of formed deployable units like 1ACC which is the most obvious and others lesser known jobs working alongside the Army like RAP Troop and 16AAB. But at present the main OOA for TG12 has always been the Falklands. We've sent people on occasion to do specific jobs in other theatres, like doing datalinks in Gulf War 1, but there's been a perception in the some people's minds at the higher level that we're only fit for one type of job. In the last 12 months or maybe longer that's started to change and we've picked up a slot on TELIC and we're sending a lot more people on HERRICK.

Out of sight of the wider service, we've had people on NATO dets on ISAF but I think there's a growing realisation that we are more than capable of more than just sitting in front of a 'radar tube' hence the growing committment to dets other than the FI.

Now, I await my fellow scopies chipping in with their tenpennyworth. LOL.

DT_Xtremez_19:

 

[Fearless Leader]

AND I almost forgot...

TACROs! Who work at the remote radar sites around the UK!!! Which comes under the other non-IDO jobs for AS Mngrs.

Which coincedentally is the main SNCO job for TG12 Sgts in the FI. When you're not dealing with all your Adj stuff...

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

OK, this may take some time! LOL.

To start off with we have SNCO Weapons Controllers (used to be Intercept Controllers if you remember that far back). You have to apply specifically for the job, you do the aptitude tests at OASC just like TG9 controllers. Tends to be SACs and Cpls, they stay at that rank when they go through training alongside Officers straight off IOT who are doing their professional training. Upon successful completion of training they are promoted to Sgt and will undergo ILMC like other Sgts who are promoted off the board. They are then technically in a different job specialisation within TG12 and have their own promotion list to FS and on to WO. Job specilisations within the WCs see them move on to Fighter Allocator and sees them do a tour on the E3D.

SNCO Identification Officers (IDOs) are a job specilisation for the 'normal' SNCO structure of TG12. Normally what happens is that either a guy is posted in to an IDO slot on promotion or upon leaving a previous tour as a non-IDO. Still with me??? This is possibly going to change in the future to 'encourage' more newly promoted Sgts to do IDO as its not seen by some to be a positive area of employment previously.

The remaining 'normal' SNCOs are employed in CRCs doing roles such as Datalinks Manager or other roles within the trade of AS Mngr. They brought in the AS Mngr name a little while ago to collectively pool all non-controller SNCOs in TG12.

As for the FI, well there are quite a few scopie SNCOs jobs now that are part of formed deployable units like 1ACC which is the most obvious and others lesser known jobs working alongside the Army like RAP Troop and 16AAB. But at present the main OOA for TG12 has always been the Falklands. We've sent people on occasion to do specific jobs in other theatres, like doing datalinks in Gulf War 1, but there's been a perception in the some people's minds at the higher level that we're only fit for one type of job. In the last 12 months or maybe longer that's started to change and we've picked up a slot on TELIC and we're sending a lot more people on HERRICK.

Out of sight of the wider service, we've had people on NATO dets on ISAF but I think there's a growing realisation that we are more than capable of more than just sitting in front of a 'radar tube' hence the growing committment to dets other than the FI.

Now, I await my fellow scopies chipping in with their tenpennyworth. LOL.

DT_Xtremez_19:

According to a recent Trade Sponsor's brief, Identification Officer is THE future for SNCOs in TG12. Whether this is good or bad remains to be seen, there are problems at the moment in the IDO world, mainly due to numbers, OOAs etc and that is one of the main reasons why people do not want to do it.

The training course is long and fairly intense, similar length to the Weapons Controller course but possibly needlessly; the job originally existed to give JOs who fail controller training something else to do within the branch so the training had to be seen to have some parity. IMHO the course is too long (yes I have done it) and could be done better (FL I wrote a paper to the SFC and TExec about all of this!!:

This is the only real formal training for SNCOs with the exception of some equipment courses such as Type 101 Radar TACRO (Tactical Radar Officer), normally pre-deployment training for non-IDO SNCOs for the FI and initial Data Link training for those not caught earlier in their careers.

More SNCOs are starting to get involves in Air Battle Management roles, either in Formed Units (AOCC(L) is one example) or NFU dets (Herrick). These normally are looking at requests for Air Support or indeed Airspace and this is where TG12/OSB(FC)s come into their own. I wouldn't dare suggest that a FOM could not do the job without training but it seems that you are stretched as it is.

The easy solution is to lump us into one trade group, but keep the specializations. This would put us in line with the Regt/RAF Police/Firemen but would not solve the numbers issue. Does FOA have difficulty recruiting?

Crossover in Basic Trade Training already happens, the FOA school teaches lessons taken directly from the SFC (Air Battle Management stuff mainly) and I am sure that we teach things that you cover (Met/Airfields/NOTAMS etc).

POB, I would be interested in a quick and dirty rundown of what TG9 (Non Controller) SNCOs do for a living, maybe we could bust some misconceptions on both sides.

Hope this helps some more, following on from Fearless Leader's excellent explanation above!