How much worse is this going to get?

[Realist78]

How much worse

How much worse

The thing is, and it's not a dig at Wobbly or anyone else because I suspect we've all been guilty of it at one point or another but we're our own worst enemy and we know it. It's that bloody can do attitude of ours.

Time to start saying no, what are they going to do when you've already told them you're leaving?

Fair point(ish), but isn't the can-do attitude what makes us tick? However, I agree that saying no seems to be the only way of highlighting the dire situation we are in. Increasingly though, the hierarchy don't bat an eyelid when you have a rant and tell some home truths, mainly because they have no defence (and neither shall the UK if it carries on!)::/:

 

[pie sandwich]

I am on the same shift as wobbly and it's not the can do attitude that left team fairy without any NCO's on the desk just 2 SAC's neither with a self supp auth and 1 who has done a Q cse for a shift. we had to get the rects cont to over sign the work.

Our man power was 1 snco 1 sac on a q cse 1 snco on ssgf 2 jnco's 1 sac ooa and 1 jnco on leave (does'nt like to work the weekend)

And not a single piece of legal work done all night, thats progress for you

 

[sausage2]

When I mentioned to the upper management the chronic shortage of manpower, I was told in no uncertain terms, that there was not a manpower problem, and we were in fact overbourne. The problem apparenty is caused by the shift and trade management, not correctly controlling their assets.

So basically Wobbly as far as they are concerned, it's your fault!!!

 

[dodgysootie]

And its only going to get worse!!

And its only going to get worse!!

Same situation up hear as well, this week on the sooty desk there is me(Snco) and 2 SAC's, We've had major rects to contend with, including loads of EGR's which means having to "borrow" bods for safety men etc, as well as being expected to carry out refuels etc for the flypro and train up AMMs. Illegal paperwork FFS. I'm with you Wobbly, 18 months notice going in in May, If Jpa will let me do that whilst OOA (again)!! Defo out though Nov 08. (22years). My can do attitude is going work for me for a change, as I CAN tell them to ram LOS 30 and get out as soon as possible without losing my pension etc.
DS

 

[wobbly]

Weaker individuals stay? Fcuk me Bengo, if those of us who are around the 20 year point could walk away tomorrow, I think most of us would.

I will not give the RAF the satisfaction of p1ssing me off to such a point that I have to walk away from the gratuity & pension.

Hence why its an 18 month wait minimum.....pension trap!!!

And S2, your right mate, Im at fault............bugger!!!

 

[Tashy_Man]

And not a single piece of legal work done all night, thats progress for you

If you can't complete the paperwork legally then obviously all the work was illegal and you (or the rects controller) should not have got you to carry it out. If no suitable superviser was/is available then just refuse to carry out the job....NO boss can order you to carry out illegal work......they may get the idea eventually.

Crack on...........DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[wobbly]

Once upon a time the British Armed forces were the best in the world. Every foreign government would have sold their own grandmother to have such a professional outfit under their command and I would say the majority of them would have looked after them. I have always since a young snapper wanted to be in the RAF. I didn't want any other job in the world and I shudder to think what I would be doing now if I hadn't got the job. I have always been a man to do the job properly, put overtime in without a blink of an eyelid, go on dets, aircraft recovery teams, OOA's, Guard, Secondary duties, and much more......all at the expense of my personal life. It suddenly dawned on me after the last 3 shifts that I no longer want to "give" to this job my commitment and professionalism as I am now expected to break every law in the book just to make the system and cutbacks work.

I am expected to send unsupervised lads out to work without checking any of their work. I'm also expected to carry out independents when I have actually supervised the task. I put my foot down finally last night and being the only supervisor in I refused to let lads work on their own. I took my 4 sooties to each task as a team so they could be legally supervised when working 15 foot off the ground in 40 knot winds. I will no longer BEND the rules to make the flying program. If their isn't enough manpower to get the job legally done then the fooker stays on the ground. I am sick and tired of my professionalism being dragged into illegal practices which seem to have been made the de facto standard across the RAF. This expected "breach" of work practices is now the norm and for it you can expect the nice little pat on the back for your 6000. However, I would rather eat my own ****e than be promoted for allowing this illegal fiasco to continue.

Can Do Attitude will be the death of someone and when that smoking hole in the ground happens (And it will) I will have nothing to do with it........hopefully.

 

[gemarriott]

Wobbly,

AMEN to that mate,

GOOD ON YER!

 

[TheHogwartsBEngO]

I just hope someone listens Wobbly.

I wish I could say it's not like it in the civvy world DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[wgaf]

Wobbly for what it's worth mate you've got my whole hearted support, I for one will not be in the slightest bit worried about saying no.
I've no doubt the boys on shift feel the same as well.

 

[Tashy_Man]

Well said Wobbly....think you said it slightly better than what i put, but basically it's the same message.

NO MANPOWER = NO WORK...simple

Crack on.......DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[Mr Fix it]

They don't like it up'm

They don't like it up'm

Welldone Wobbly - Its about time people started standing up to the "system". You should have never been put in this situation and if more people join in to playing their game eventullaly things will have to get better as the program will never be meet without an increase in manpower. Officers have to make "improvements/cost savings" to progress and most are only looking after their career path, it is all driven from the Air ranks down.

The can do attitude will be our downfall because the higher management will always exploit that, I am as guilty of it as anyone of you out there is. All this requires is for the supervisors (senior and junior) to play by the rules, the JAP is there to help you as well as hang you! You have to draw the line somewhere and as you said, you do not have to obey illegal orders, therefore servicing aircraft without correct supervision is illegal.

Only problem is if you stand up to them and you think you had a career before, the officer corp will make it difficult for you in your F6000, but remember you can redress the Bar-stewards!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cooheed]

Gotta agree. Any BOI would have no hesitation in nailing balls to walls if 'correct procedures' were not followed following an (probably avoidable) accident. We are a 'can do' bunch but, before long, that will be some of our downfalls. WTG Wobbles..

 

[kerrang]

Once upon a time the British Armed forces were the best in the world. Every foreign government would have sold their own grandmother to have such a professional outfit under their command and I would say the majority of them would have looked after them. I have always since a young snapper wanted to be in the RAF. I didn't want any other job in the world and I shudder to think what I would be doing now if I hadn't got the job. I have always been a man to do the job properly, put overtime in without a blink of an eyelid, go on dets, aircraft recovery teams, OOA's, Guard, Secondary duties, and much more......all at the expense of my personal life. It suddenly dawned on me after the last 3 shifts that I no longer want to "give" to this job my commitment and professionalism as I am now expected to break every law in the book just to make the system and cutbacks work.

I am expected to send unsupervised lads out to work without checking any of their work. I'm also expected to carry out independents when I have actually supervised the task. I put my foot down finally last night and being the only supervisor in I refused to let lads work on their own. I took my 4 sooties to each task as a team so they could be legally supervised when working 15 foot off the ground in 40 knot winds. I will no longer BEND the rules to make the flying program. If their isn't enough manpower to get the job legally done then the fooker stays on the ground. I am sick and tired of my professionalism being dragged into illegal practices which seem to have been made the de facto standard across the RAF. This expected "breach" of work practices is now the norm and for it you can expect the nice little pat on the back for your 6000. However, I would rather eat my own ****e than be promoted for allowing this illegal fiasco to continue.

Can Do Attitude will be the death of someone and when that smoking hole in the ground happens (And it will) I will have nothing to do with it........hopefully.

Post of the year Wobbly.

 

[K9 FORNICATOR]

We Have Been Our Own Worse Enemies!

We Have Been Our Own Worse Enemies!

Loads and loads of good points on this thread, nevertheless in my somewhat limited experience we as engineers have been our own worse enemies! For years and years we have been operating on a "Can Do! Basis." Nobody wishes to appear to "buck the trend" and fail to reach the intended goal.
Less than ideal resources available, very little gratitude and all to maintain the status quo, get reasonable assessments, get promoted and subsequently change the world but the majority of personnel with the clout to listen to you and change things are too busy feathuring their own nests! DO NOT put this down to cynisism as it is fact!
I am in a similar engineering environment as 'Wobbly' and witness on a regular basis personnel 'touting' for signatures on engineering paperwork. Everyone has done it myself included. Remember next time there is a manning review and manpower gets cut further....Each time a signature has been touted for, those individuals concerned have nothing to bleat about as it was them that shot themselves in the foot! Get on with it (and get on with it correctly!) or get out! But do it quietly!

 

[POB]

I don't want to be too specific on this but here we go:

A few years ago an up and coming new SATCO decided that he didn't have enough trained controllers to man the tower for the flying commitment he was presented with. He decided to do the brave thing and shout about it. He instigated a "Flying Window" 12 hrs a day for the jets. He was a good boss, well liked. We all knew that he was going places quickly, and was touted to be promoted after that tour. He dug his heels in. He made a stand.





He was last heard of as a bit part actor having left the RAF in the same rank.

 

[vim_fuego]

Years ago when I was a techie I was involved in two BOI's...This was not a reflection on my crapness as I was cleared both times!!!

I learnt something from going through these to be honest quite terrifying ordeals and that is that if you frig the system this is the time and place where your nice, comfortable and reasonably well paid career can come to an end...

The board members were utterley humorless and had the relevent AP's out on the table in front of them or on their laps open at the page in question...If I or any of the other accused said one thing that deviated outside of what they were reading they would note it and without remorse use it against us...

What I'm trying to say was that luckily for me and my colleagues both times there were extraneous circumstances that were enough of a factor to get us off the hook and I tell you we were bloody lucky...If you continue to work illegally then one day...and it could be tonight...you'll get caught out and you'll see how fast your heirarchy put up the sh*t umberellas and not look you in the eye ever again...I can't imagine what pressure they are using on you to work like this but believe me it's nothing to having to go through one of those boards...If you've PVR/NGR'd or have just decided to come out then give yourselves a break and just say no...Speaking from the aircrew point of view none of us would want you to work illegally either so it must just be your bosses...

 

[Hu Jardon]

Top Posts by Wobbly and everyone who has backed him up. Also what Vim says is absolutely correct - come the subsequent board of enquiry (and I can assure you I seen a few from a number of different positions) your esteemed leaners (no thats not a typo) will deny all knowledge of "coercing" you into "bending" the rules. If you've genuinely decided enough is enough then just say no - don't put your neck, or someone elses, on the line for the sake of a weak manager.

And people might laugh at this piece of advice but if your boss is ignoring any warning you are giving about engineering integrity then go and see the Padre and tell him you're concerned about safety.

Hu

 

[Realist78]

how much worse

how much worse

Wobbly, the b@stards that have put you in this position deserve your contempt. They don't merit your efforts or integrity. WTF has it come to when this situation has been allowed to arise? I certainly would not expect my guys to cross that line and end up in BOI territory. Definitely time to say NO.

 

[Almost_done]

*climb onto soapbox*

I have the same attitude as Wobbly, and I have been asked in the past (as a lowly Cpl ) after declaring a bit of kit u/s, can you look at it again, or are you sure, stock answer was "well if you look at the book and the limits there, it's out, do you want to sign the card as it's servicable?". Needless to say I have not made many friends up the chain in the RAF with my attitude, however I have always looked out for my guys, if ever a mistake was made , I was the supervisor, the fault was mine.

So many Bosses are unhinged when you and the troop/s are on the carpet getting ready for the bollocking and you say, "I was supervising and ultimately, I am responsible."

I only ever carry the can if the guys have done it by the book, they also know this.

Still gets the job done, may be slower, it's 100% safer, in the UK we have no excuse for working illegally, believe it or not the rules are there to make sure we, the Pax, the cargo, the people on the ground and the aircrew are safe, so look out for No1 and the rest as you go along, the management won't like it, you'll get respect from the guys, possibly from the Aircrew too, as it's their asses we are saving in the long run. If the Eng Bosses can't see this then they need to reappraise what our tasks are and how we are to complete them.

If we oldies, show the new lads the gash ways all the time, that's what they will do all the time, period. Today we cannot afford that to happen, as we will be left hung out to dry.......'self induced pressure' or 'working outside the safe working limits as laid down in AP blah!' will be thrown in your face by your JENGO, no matter what fantastic work you have done for him in the past. He will be looking out for his next step up the ladder, it's a dog eat dog world in his world and the don't like anything to sully their records. I may seem harsh in saying this if any JENGOs are reading this, but, to be honest you will do your best, but at the end of the day your career is more important to you than going out on that far limb for the troop who has cocked up according to the book, regardless of the 'Human Factors'.

Oh well, thats me in the poo again. My message is 'just do it properly, by the procedure, if you can't don't do it till you have all you need', they may moan, shout, strop at you even threaten the assessments (if they do and then the do assasinate you well you have the right of redress). At the endand the beginning of the day I have to look at myself in the mirror, I still like the person I see there, I can still live with that person, when I can't I am in the poo.

*Steps off soapbox*

Waits for incoming