Retention.....

[Tubby]

Besides, your in the pension trap so unless you had an unbelievable offer else where you would be staying in another four years anyway. We should be out of Iraq by then and just concentrating on Afghanistan. That would be sufficient a slack to allow a depleted manpower to be shifted into the more under pressure positions.

 

[True Blue Jack]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Hefty retention bonuses for certain pinch-point trades (e.g., Fftr, Gnr) have already been introduced in the last 12 months. It has been directly responsible for 3 SAC Fftrs rescinding their PVRs at my unit alone. Almost anyone past the 15-year point is going nowhere until they reach their pension point, so we don't need to worry about them (which includes me as it happens). The question then, is how to retain Snecs beyond their 22.

As for the government's war chest - they've had to increase the national debt significantly just to bail themselves out of the 10% tax fiasco. One news report I read recently suggests that we will need to pay 5% more tax than we do already just to stop the national debt climbing further.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Hefty retention bonuses for certain pinch-point trades (e.g., Fftr, Gnr) have already been introduced in the last 12 months. It has been directly responsible for 3 SAC Fftrs rescinding their PVRs at my unit alone. Almost anyone past the 15-year point is going nowhere until they reach their pension point, so we don't need to worry about them (which includes me as it happens). The question then, is how to retain Snecs beyond their 22.

As for the government's war chest - they've had to increase the national debt significantly just to bail themselves out of the 10% tax fiasco. One news report I read recently suggests that we will need to pay 5% more tax than we do already just to stop the national debt climbing further.

I'd be just as worried about the 5 - 7 year SACs currently banging out at an alarming rate.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I'd be just as worried about the 5 - 7 year SACs currently banging out at an alarming rate.

I have no doubt they have been banging out from JFH at an alarming rate but is that true across the board? Will things get better for you when you are replaced by GR4s in Afghanistan? Are we just shifting the problem to another platform, or will it give us the breathing space we need before Typhoon achieves FOC?

 

[Downsizer]

I have no doubt they have been banging out from JFH at an alarming rate but is that true across the board? Will things get better for you when you are replaced by GR4s in Afghanistan? Are we just shifting the problem to another platform, or will it give us the breathing space we need before Typhoon achieves FOC?

It's not just JFH that SAC's are banging out on...I am shocked you didn't know that.

 

[Nec Aspera Terrent]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Hefty retention bonuses for certain pinch-point trades (e.g., Fftr, Gnr) have already been introduced in the last 12 months. It has been directly responsible for 3 SAC Fftrs rescinding their PVRs at my unit alone. Almost anyone past the 15-year point is going nowhere until they reach their pension point, so we don't need to worry about them (which includes me as it happens). The question then, is how to retain Snecs beyond their 22.

As for the government's war chest - they've had to increase the national debt significantly just to bail themselves out of the 10% tax fiasco. One news report I read recently suggests that we will need to pay 5% more tax than we do already just to stop the national debt climbing further.

The question is how to make the job attractive to a 40 year old with well over twenty years of experience.

Money is only a very small part of the answer.

You've admitted that beyond 15 years, folk feel "trapped" by the pension. Losing the feeling of being trapped is part of the answer. Giving people a sense of purpose, a desire to stay, the feeling of doing a worthwhile job might just help. Giving them the right personnel and equipment to do the job well might just go some way to helping too. Changing the way we do business for the sake of it is frustrating. If change was managed properly, it would be less so.

There are many different factors that make people leave at 22. Understanding those reasons is half of the battle. But when did someone in command last sit you down and explore your career aspirations beyond the next year or two? When did they last ask you what would make your life better or what the RAF can do for you? Sure, we all bleat our hearts out in the Continuous Attitude Survey, but who has had a follow-up interview? Who is taking an interest in YOU the person?

And as I've said before, sometimes we just need to accept that people will leave. 22 years working for one company is a long time. More so than it was for our fathers and grandfathers. Sometimes the RAF just can't meet your career or life aspirations. If that's you, as it is me, it's time to go.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I am shocked you didn't know that.

I do. Now pi$$ off back to the playground and let the grown ups talk.

 

[Downsizer]

I have no doubt they have been banging out from JFH at an alarming rate but is that true across the board? Will things get better for you when you are replaced by GR4s in Afghanistan? Are we just shifting the problem to another platform, or will it give us the breathing space we need before Typhoon achieves FOC?

It seems as though you didn't. Your question not mine.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

I have no doubt they have been banging out from JFH at an alarming rate but is that true across the board? Will things get better for you when you are replaced by GR4s in Afghanistan? Are we just shifting the problem to another platform, or will it give us the breathing space we need before Typhoon achieves FOC?

Well I can't speak for the entire air force, but most of the people on the resettlement brief I attended were 5-7 year SACs from all trades (not actually that many from JFH!).

I've also found one of the reasons for PVR'ing amongst juniors is frustration at NOT going OOA (people not going away after being in 8 years - through no fault of their own) I might add.

I think amongst a lot of the younger service personnel, there seems to be a definite feeling we are being let down by the service and that there is more out there in the real world.

This is just my opinion, based on what I've seen thus far and the people I've spoken to.

 

[Tashy_Man]

I do. Now pi$$ off back to the playground and let the grown ups talk.

Typical Zob wannabe talk........

Crack on.......................DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[Sospan]

The 22+ year SNCO seems to be the one that keeps popping up, but what can be don't about it ? Getting somebody to sign LOS 30 is one thing but stopping them PVR'ing after the 21 year point is another.

 

[True Blue Jack]

22 years working for one company is a long time.

Too right it is. Until recently, a lot of the noises from upstairs pointed to the fact that, in civvy street, people change jobs every 5 years on average. The difference is that, in civvy street, many skills are readily transferrable. If we worked that way, a suitably qualified engineer would be able to join as a sgt and get straight to work on VC10s. We know it won't (and can't) happen.

I've also found one of the reasons for PVR'ing amongst juniors is frustration at NOT going OOA (people not going away after being in 8 years - through no fault of their own) I might add.

Now that is interesting. Do you think that some bods may be looking at their contemporaries going to Iraq/Afghanistan for the umpteenth time while they're stuck doing the backfill and are frustrated that they aren't getting their chance in the sandbox? Maybe the change in mindset to one of an expeditionary Air Force has been too successful for some youngsters? I did my first OOA after 8 years and I had to volunteer to go out of turn even then. Now we turn round every 2 years at best.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Too right it is. Until recently, a lot of the noises from upstairs pointed to the fact that, in civvy street, people change jobs every 5 years on average. The difference is that, in civvy street, many skills are readily transferrable. If we worked that way, a suitably qualified engineer would be able to join as a sgt and get straight to work on VC10s. We know it won't (and can't) happen.




Now that is interesting. Do you think that some bods may be looking at their contemporaries going to Iraq/Afghanistan for the umpteenth time while they're stuck doing the backfill and are frustrated that they aren't getting their chance in the sandbox? Maybe the change in mindset to one of an expeditionary Air Force has been too successful for some youngsters? I did my first OOA after 8 years and I had to volunteer to go out of turn even then. Now we turn round every 2 years at best.

I think it's more to do with the fact we feel undervalued by the organisation we joined. I for one feel like my career has absolutely no management whatsoever, and that one of the symptoms of this is the fact I had to PVR to get a (trade) OOA! It is frustrating to be labelled a "war dodger" when you have tried several times to get on ops. Speaking to some of my colleagues in the wider air force, I realised my case is not an isolated one. Don't get me wrong, doing a 2 monther every 4 months wouldn't exactly fill me with joy, but it would be nice to get on ops a bit more often (spread the burden out more?).

I joined the RAF to fit bombs and weaponry to aircraft, and for me, the chance to do that in an operational environment will be the apex of my time in the service. If you speak to most youngsters, 99% love their jobs, but the reason they are leaving is because they feel let down or marginalised by the organisation. We don't mind going OOA, but when you feel like you are being unfairly taken advantage of (for example the Herc guys) than small wonder that the PVRs go flying in.

 

[True Blue Jack]

What would it take to change your mind, Monty? I guess from your last post that it would have nothing to do with money.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

What would it take to change your mind, Monty? I guess from your last post that it would have nothing to do with money.

No to be honest, it's not really about the money, I feel adequately renumerated at my current salary and rank. A few ideas spring to mind...

1) Stop moving the manpower around in a "firefighting" crisis sort of way. By this I mean that whenevr someone is due to be posted they automatically get shoved onto whatever fleet/section is short of bods at that time, regardless of whether or not that posting would be good for an individuals career and development. Obviously, we need to take in to acount the needs of the service, but pushing people into places they really, really don't want to go is counter productive.

2) Some sort of scheme by which accelerated promotion is available to the best and the brightest (and by this I mean the ones who don't want a Commission). I am, of course, talking about an Artificer scheme for techies (but maybe a similar "fast track" for other trades"). Okay, so you will have earned a "plastic" SNCO rank, but the as an individual you will feel like you have achieved something and been recognised for your skills, attitude and experiences, in short feel "valued".

3) Worthwhile pay rises for promotion. As an example, between level 9 SAC and level 7 Sgt (high band) there is a mere £7,620 p.a. difference. This is a disgraceful figure for the gap in responsibility between SAC and SGT. It makes youngsters like me wonder if there is any point in getting promoted for a few pennies a day extra. I don't want to spend 20 years of my life working for an organisation that will give me 7 grand p.a. more for getting promoted twice.

4) This isn't the days of National Service. Many junior ranks are bright, upwardly mobile, switched-on people. Unfortunately, the RAF seems to be 20 years behind when it comes to recognising this. For example, in the current climate, should we still be having SACs and Cpls picking up litter every Friday morning? Is this an effective use of manpower? This is another reason why younger people lose interest in the RAF quickly.

There are lots of other things, but it would take me hours to list them. In short, to make me stay in, I'd like to feel like my contribution to the RAF counts for something, and that I'm not just another set of denims to be given gash jobs.

That's the best way I can explain it I think.

 

[Nec Aspera Terrent]

No to be honest, it's not really about the money, I feel adequately renumerated at my current salary and rank. A few ideas spring to mind...

1) Stop moving the manpower around in a "firefighting" crisis sort of way. By this I mean that whenevr someone is due to be posted they automatically get shoved onto whatever fleet/section is short of bods at that time, regardless of whether or not that posting would be good for an individuals career and development. Obviously, we need to take in to acount the needs of the service, but pushing people into places they really, really don't want to go is counter productive.

2) Some sort of scheme by which accelerated promotion is available to the best and the brightest (and by this I mean the ones who don't want a Commission). I am, of course, talking about an Artificer scheme for techies (but maybe a similar "fast track" for other trades"). Okay, so you will have earned a "plastic" SNCO rank, but the as an individual you will feel like you have achieved something and been recognised for your skills, attitude and experiences, in short feel "valued".

3) Worthwhile pay rises for promotion. As an example, between level 9 SAC and level 7 Sgt (high band) there is a mere £7,620 p.a. difference. This is a disgraceful figure for the gap in responsibility between SAC and SGT. It makes youngsters like me wonder if there is any point in getting promoted for a few pennies a day extra. I don't want to spend 20 years of my life working for an organisation that will give me 7 grand p.a. more for getting promoted twice.

4) This isn't the days of National Service. Many junior ranks are bright, upwardly mobile, switched-on people. Unfortunately, the RAF seems to be 20 years behind when it comes to recognising this. For example, in the current climate, should we still be having SACs and Cpls picking up litter every Friday morning? Is this an effective use of manpower? This is another reason why younger people lose interest in the RAF quickly.

There are lots of other things, but it would take me hours to list them. In short, to make me stay in, I'd like to feel like my contribution to the RAF counts for something, and that I'm not just another set of denims to be given gash jobs.

That's the best way I can explain it I think.

No. We should all be doing it.

Either that or stop people from dropping litter in the first place!

 

[Tubby]

The tax stories are scaremongers, NR and B&B will push up national debt but we can carry them for a while then sell then on which wont affect us to much, less than them going t!ts up anyway. Pay is the biggest issue for snco's, give them thier pensions with thier normal pay and you might find they will stay in at no net increase to the pay budget because they would have to pay thier pension and replace them anyway. Pay would still be an issue though, I think pay for at least techie snecs is disgustingly low for what they do and are signing for (dont want a trade fight, I just dont know what shiney snec's do). That alone would encourage a lot of those in the pension trap to stay on, every year they do will increase thier wage by an increment and pension by 1/32 or whatever it is.

The retention bonus proves my point, those guys will still probably leave, just now they will leave in a few years down the line rather than this year. £5000 I think it was, well they can still stick that up thier ar5e and I'm sure many PVRers will agree, thats not worth the time spent reading the offer. With the government and MOD wasting money left right and centre on art and other trivial things that can be bought for a tenner instead of many thousands of £'s, you wonder why we at the sharp end get fcuked off.

 

[John Lloyd]

No to be honest, it's not really about the money, I feel adequately renumerated at my current salary and rank. A few ideas spring to mind...

1) Stop moving the manpower around in a "firefighting" crisis sort of way. By this I mean that whenevr someone is due to be posted they automatically get shoved onto whatever fleet/section is short of bods at that time, regardless of whether or not that posting would be good for an individuals career and development. Obviously, we need to take in to acount the needs of the service, but pushing people into places they really, really don't want to go is counter productive.

2) Some sort of scheme by which accelerated promotion is available to the best and the brightest (and by this I mean the ones who don't want a Commission). I am, of course, talking about an Artificer scheme for techies (but maybe a similar "fast track" for other trades"). Okay, so you will have earned a "plastic" SNCO rank, but the as an individual you will feel like you have achieved something and been recognised for your skills, attitude and experiences, in short feel "valued".

3) Worthwhile pay rises for promotion. As an example, between level 9 SAC and level 7 Sgt (high band) there is a mere £7,620 p.a. difference. This is a disgraceful figure for the gap in responsibility between SAC and SGT. It makes youngsters like me wonder if there is any point in getting promoted for a few pennies a day extra. I don't want to spend 20 years of my life working for an organisation that will give me 7 grand p.a. more for getting promoted twice.

4) This isn't the days of National Service. Many junior ranks are bright, upwardly mobile, switched-on people. Unfortunately, the RAF seems to be 20 years behind when it comes to recognising this. For example, in the current climate, should we still be having SACs and Cpls picking up litter every Friday morning? Is this an effective use of manpower? This is another reason why younger people lose interest in the RAF quickly.

There are lots of other things, but it would take me hours to list them. In short, to make me stay in, I'd like to feel like my contribution to the RAF counts for something, and that I'm not just another set of denims to be given gash jobs.

That's the best way I can explain it I think.

Solid arguement, well presented. Comes the day when your trade and technical ability out grows the dogshyt and bullshyt of the orgnisation. Mine hit post GW1 and thankfully saw the chicken bones of more shyt with less bodies and funding.

12 excellent years done, then time to move on.

It's just a paid for work experience and it does stand you in good stead.

 

[Get Tae]

Its not all about pay its about STUFF and THINGS.

They keep getting STUFF mixed up with THINGS and its a recipe for disaster.

There is no management of any STUFF and no control of THINGS.

Until someone up high gets the STUFF and THINGS sorted out then the RAF will continue to slide into decline.

Well thats my opinion anyway and thats why I pvr'd!

 

[3wheeledtechie]

There are many different factors that make people leave at 22. Understanding those reasons is half of the battle. But when did someone in command last sit you down and explore your career aspirations beyond the next year or two? When did they last ask you what would make your life better or what the RAF can do for you? Sure, we all bleat our hearts out in the Continuous Attitude Survey, but who has had a follow-up interview? Who is taking an interest in YOU the person?

And as I've said before, sometimes we just need to accept that people will leave. 22 years working for one company is a long time. More so than it was for our fathers and grandfathers. Sometimes the RAF just can't meet your career or life aspirations. If that's you, as it is me, it's time to go.

I think its the constant feeling than no one is listening, or that the genuine gripes are being watered down by nest feathering, career seeking middle management by the time they get to the ivory towers. I for one never finished filling in one of them Continuous attitude surveys during my time in. I got halfway, got bored, and decided it was pointless as it wouldn't have any impact anyway.

Believe me if you really want to see a reaction, get your wife or partner (assuming their not in the RAF) to write directly to someone in a position of power. CAS maybe? Point is the wife isn't in the air force (there are some that like to think they are their husband's rank however) and is under no obligation to respect the chain of command to get their concerns, on the impact of policy on their family or the serviceman they're married to, addressed. Be warned it could be a risky strategy, but if the other option is PVR, nowt to lose I say.

I agree with Monty about the artificer scheme, however with all the techies vying to get onto it, it would be oversubscribed. In fact the RAF used to have something similar where they selected a number of Cpls every year to do an HNC at Cosford. The crime of this scheme, was that they poached virtually all these people for engineering commissions.

I think that in conjunction they should restore the status of WOs, so it really is the pinnacle of a non-commissioned career, to the point where the WO is the second most important person on the Sqn.