screen tours for TTF instructors

[FOMz]

FOMz - Maybe someone should look at the posts and decide what needs to be a SAC/Cpl/Sgt post. Maybe downgrade a few Cpl posts to SAC and the same with Sgt's that might help?

I'm 'out of the loop' at the moment Insideoutsideupsidedownman and even I know that is currently underway and has had some success.

DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[insideinfoman]

I'm 'out of the loop' at the moment Insideoutsideupsidedownman and even I know that is currently underway and has had some success.

DT_Xtremez_30:

So am I it's amazing how quickly you lose contact and whats going on in the school.

It is all about the Student as Chaka says, it always has been and if screening the Instructors means we can get the FMDL up and back to strength then it must be the way forward

DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

I cannot see how downgrading posts will help short term if your problem is at the SAC/Cpl level. Creating more jobs for the SAC will simply cause more problems. Screening the instructors is a good idea, as Chaka says above it is all about the student.

If you cannot meet your IPS target (140) for the coming year then your problems will just get worse in the short/medium term.

My trade is helping where we can, the latest PMA bulletin shows we are overmanned at the SAC level again, so maybe this is somewhere we can help out. The quick fix may be to chuck some OOAs our way, possible at the SAC level and possibly higher although certain units are hurting from the lack of trained Cpls at the moment.

The big question is how much hurt amongst the trade will the screening of instructors cause? If you have the average 20% of your trade in the twisted sock brigade then will this reduce you to around 70% deployable? Or are your figures better than this?

Your trade does seem to be suffering unnecessarily, 4 years ago I was part of a team that was told a categoric NO on the TG9/12 merger option only to find things going full circle now. We don't have a merger yet however, just an understanding of your hurt and an agreement to provide some bodies at particular pinch points.

Buggers muddle really. Don't screen your instructors and fail to meet your IPS numbers or screen them and everyone does slightly more OOA in the next year or two until people filter through the system. Glad I don't have to make the decision but I know what side of the fence I stand on.

 

[J Y Kelly]

Has the requirement for screened tours brought on by the need to try and extricate the trade from the higher reaches of $hit creek? What's the FMDL is at the moment? Hopefully something better than it was 6 months ago but I doubt that it's at the forecast levels. I would suggest that for a number of reasons all in not well in recruitment and training of the trade and this might be a measure to gain some breathing space.

 

[Donald Rumsfeld]

FOTF do a good job under difficult circumstances and should be applauded as such. Proportionally they contribute to the OOA roster as much as any other unit does. A screened tour is probalay a reasonable idea to provide consistency and continuty to the most important person - the student. Without a steady output of trained manpower we would be even further up the creek then we are now.

Ps. Pay a visit to Shawbury and find out exactly what goes on.

 

[FOMz]

This has been quite an interesting thread and for a change it hasn't descended into a slanging match or back biting session.

Thanks for the answers guys.

 

[sooms]

Anyone care to enlighten me on what hours FOTF work?

If there aren't enough instructors to get the courses through on time, why not lengthen the working day?

How about working weekends - we're paid 7 days a week.

For the record, my programme for the next few months is-

End Apr- Beginning of June- Detached USA (ok- Not too bad)
Next 2 weekends after getting back- both working weekends( Role demo/ Queens Birthday flypast)
Next weekend after that- off to CQWI for two weeks.
First weekend off- probably middle of July.

Result- Ten weeks either working or away from the family.

By the way, my section is usually open at 5am and the night shift often locks up at 1.30am. I often have only myself and one FOA to cover these hours.

FOTF overworked??

 

[Chaka]

Anyone care to enlighten me on what hours FOTF work?

If there aren't enough instructors to get the courses through on time, why not lengthen the working day?

How about working weekends - we're paid 7 days a week.

For the record, my programme for the next few months is-

End Apr- Beginning of June- Detached USA (ok- Not too bad)
Next 2 weekends after getting back- both working weekends( Role demo/ Queens Birthday flypast)
Next weekend after that- off to CQWI for two weeks.
First weekend off- probably middle of July.

Result- Ten weeks either working or away from the family.

By the way, my section is usually open at 5am and the night shift often locks up at 1.30am. I often have only myself and one FOA to cover these hours.

FOTF overworked??

Again it sounds like someone who has never had the pleasure of being an Instructor chimping on about things they don't understand. DT_Xtremez_26:

I think you would find the Students would probably burn out quickly with such a system. Most Studes probably spend their evenings/weekends revising and consolidating the days/weeks workload anyway.

Sooms would you have benifited from attending School for 7 days a week and do you really think that is a good way to Trade train future FO/ATC personnel?DT_Xtremez_34:

 

[sooms]

Chaka,

I've never been an instructor- never wanted to be.

Don't really care about studes burning out- I care about me, my family and the other dudes on the frontline burning out.

I probably wouldn't have benefitted from going to school 7 days a week- same as I don't benefit from working 10 weeks without a day off.

The issue here is not about extra pressure on the studes/ instructors, it's about mismanagement of the trade yet again and people pulling their weight.

Like it or not there are two wars going on at the moment and some people are doing more than others, I have no sympathy with someone whinging that they're busy and overworked when they work 8 till 5 Monday-Friday.

In case you're wondering I'm not a 'day out of uniform is a day wasted/ the Air Force is great' merchant. I'm just a ordinary sqn puke trying to do my job.

Nothing will change until we get the OOA mess sorted out, and thats not going to happen until ATC Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs are on 18 month OOA turnrounds. How many pictures of ATC Officers do you see in Contact and the only medal they've got is a Golden Jubilee medal?

I'm not trying to turn this into another slanging match- I'm sure the FOTF staff have a difficult enough job, however it's difficult for those at the sharp end to see how this can be justified.

Best regards...sooms

 

[Hmmmm]

sooms, you're talking out of your hoop. Until you pitched up there was some sensible discussion going on here. To use the "I'm working harder than him" line is so pathetic and, frankly, ignorant. Chaka gave you a reasoned response and, as if we didn't see it coming, you launched into an ATC bashing session.

If you're not trying to turn this into a slagging match, well then I'm bemused at what you are trying to do. May I suggest that you find a day in your hectic schedule and take a trip to Shawbury?

Regards

Hmmm

Retired ATC officer
450 days OOA in two years.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Chaka,

I've never been an instructor- never wanted to be.

Don't really care about studes burning out- I care about me, my family and the other dudes on the frontline burning out.

I probably wouldn't have benefitted from going to school 7 days a week- same as I don't benefit from working 10 weeks without a day off.

The issue here is not about extra pressure on the studes/ instructors, it's about mismanagement of the trade yet again and people pulling their weight.

Like it or not there are two wars going on at the moment and some people are doing more than others, I have no sympathy with someone whinging that they're busy and overworked when they work 8 till 5 Monday-Friday.

In case you're wondering I'm not a 'day out of uniform is a day wasted/ the Air Force is great' merchant. I'm just a ordinary sqn puke trying to do my job.

Nothing will change until we get the OOA mess sorted out, and thats not going to happen until ATC Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs are on 18 month OOA turnrounds. How many pictures of ATC Officers do you see in Contact and the only medal they've got is a Golden Jubilee medal?

I'm not trying to turn this into another slanging match- I'm sure the FOTF staff have a difficult enough job, however it's difficult for those at the sharp end to see how this can be justified.

Best regards...sooms

Whoa there

"Dont care about Studes burning out - you care about guys on the frontline burning out" - have a word with yourself, how are you supposed to get respite if there are no instructors? Catch 22 situation,


You mean to tell me, that you are doing the CQWI and going to the States without a day off while there?

The trade is under manned, if they are not coming through the door then you at the "sharp end" are not going to get a break are you? It is not TTFs fault that you don't have the manning, it is not ACOS fault either. if they don't have the people then they can't give them to you. Have a look closer to home, is your job established correctly? Two people on a Sqn does not seem the right amount.

Where is the trade mismanaged?

As for medals in CONTACT. At the end of the day, the majority of TG9/ATC going OOA are FOA/FOMs. There are very few controlling slots and even fewer slots for Wing Commander and Squadron Leader - hence the medal ratio.

Maybe you need an EVF.

 

[POB]

Chaka,

I've never been an instructor- never wanted to be.Horses for courses, personally I never had the urge either.

Don't really care about studes burning out- I care about me, my family and the other dudes on the frontline burning out. Start caring...They are never going to be of use to you if they get so hacked off they PVR before they even get to a Station. Yes your burning out is important too, but front line burn out is a different issue.

I probably wouldn't have benefitted from going to school 7 days a week- same as I don't benefit from working 10 weeks without a day off.No one does, but you are not unique.

The issue here is not about extra pressure on the studes/ instructors, it's about mismanagement of the trade yet again and people pulling their weight.The issue is both, and more.

Like it or not there are two wars going on at the moment and some people are doing more than others, I have no sympathy with someone whinging that they're busy and overworked when they work 8 till 5 Monday-Friday.Get over it...Your next posting could be to somewhere that works less than that, or more. Just suppose you are sent to SY to instruct, they don't only take volunteers you know! Two wars going on is precisely the reason we need more assistants, but screwing instructors about is not going to help your manning. Working hours are an emotive subject, but in general we as a trade are pretty lucky.

In case you're wondering I'm not a 'day out of uniform is a day wasted/ the Air Force is great' merchant. I'm just a ordinary sqn puke trying to do my job.

Nothing will change until we get the OOA mess sorted out, Agreed.and thats not going to happen until ATC Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs are on 18 month OOA turnrounds. Won't make any difference...As the branch changes, and more Flight Ops type posts are created, it MIGHT happen, but at the moment they are more important doing the jobs they have been trained for. When they can be deployed at that level then they will. We all have to do the Falkland Islands still.How many pictures of ATC Officers do you see in Contact and the only medal they've got is a Golden Jubilee medal?Medals??? There are also many that have them, and many that don't. Much of that is being a victim(?) of circumstance!

I'm not trying to turn this into another slanging matchbut you are doing a good job!- I'm sure the FOTF staff have a difficult enough job, however it's difficult for those at the sharp end to see how this can be justified.Personally, I would rather be OOA than at the sharp end teaching! (And coping with all the other crap that instuctors have to cope with!

Best regards...sooms

Best regards...POB

 

[Chaka]

sooms, you're talking out of your hoop. If you're not trying to turn this into a slagging match, well then I'm bemused at what you are trying to do. May I suggest that you find a day in your hectic schedule and take a trip to Shawbury?

For once me and Hmmm agree!DT_Xtremez_27:

Sooms, do you always come out to play on April 1st?DT_Xtremez_14: DT_Xtremez_30:

Kind Regards
Chaka

 

[FOMz]

Looks like I spoke to soon readers......

 

[Hammer]

I dont actually see what Air Traffic have to do with this at all to be honest. I still maintain with 10 Cpls and 4 Sgts they could be fulfilling a role in MPA or Al Udeid that doesnt take any extra training at all and will reduce the burden slightly. If the screen is only for 3 years though and instructing tours are for 5 years then not sure they will benefit too much from screening, it could bite them in the behind in a few years.

The medals on Air Traffic Officers is a silly argument, its a different trade. Aeromed staff, even air stewards have plenty of medals now but they are different trades to us. Sqn life can take up a lot of your time but you can also earn very good appraisals and the benefits that follow on from them.

 

[tommo9999]

Not trying to jump into a thread that's got nowt to do with my trade, just to clear up the tour length thing. Standard tour length for Instructors is 3 years. During that period they are normally exempt from DWR (Screened), however if the individual elects/vols to do longer (Normally 5 years Max) then he/she does so in the knowledge that they become vulnerable for DWR from the 3 yr point onwards. The decision for the management is: Do we keep an outstanding instructor who we will definitely lose for up to 6 months (DWR + trg/leave etc). Hope this helps.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

3 Simulators in TTF

Local = 3 Instructors
SWB = 1 Instructor
Ops = 2 Instructors

3 Courses in house and one of them in Sim ( See above ). The other courses require 1 instructor each = 2

So just to run the basic you are talking 8 instructors. If you factor in Leave, training instructors and Stn duties then this will soon eat up your 14 staff. My understanding is that and please forgive the blah - ASPI Vol 3 Pt 2 Chp 30 Para 12 c states that instructors are not to be used for OOA detachments without the express approval of the Trade Sqn WO. In a word, he will approve DWR for individuals who have completed a 3 year screened tour.

So in a few sentances -

Are TTF instructors Screened? - Yes so that they can get bums on seats where they are needed.

Do Instructors lack morale fibre - no more or less than anyone else fed up with current ops

Is there a manning crisis? - Haven't got a clue but everyone is suffering

Will they go straight to the top of DWR list when the screen is over? Well from reading that book, they will be vulnerable for DWR selection after completing three years of a screen tour and that is probably regardless of being an instructor or not - EEEK does that mean me too?

At the end of the day guys and gals, TTF are doing a job, it is not an easy job and believe me you need loads of patience. They are providing all the Sqns, Towers and Ops with the personnel that we are all hurting without. If they need a screen to do that then so be it. Must be something else we can bleat and whinge about - How about Scopies and Ops Officers? DT_Xtremez_31:

 

[Hmmmm]

Must be something else we can bleat and whinge about - How about Scopies and Ops Officers? DT_Xtremez_31:

.... or air traffikers. DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

especially retiring ones!! DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[FOMz]

Ops Officers? DT_Xtremez_31:

Now there's a subject for another thread if I've ever seen one.........