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What are they (for those that have no dealings whatsoever with the CS).
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An Ops delivery manager for DES.
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Yeah, they can be hit and miss. There's one in another area to me who is next to fucking useless as well. If I hadn't dragged her work along with mine earlier in the year, capability and safety would have taken a decent hit. On the other hand, my team have just lost a very good one as he's moved up to Professional I (G7).
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I don't mind office time either, I'm also usually found at other customer sites as well hence just the one or two days in the office to show face.
It was quite audacious of them (Phallus) to headhunt and pull folk across from Bristol (considerable defence supplier presence) and expect a bite.
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Hi All, been busy for a while so missed this chat.
I was working and living just outside ULEZ as a QM/CM and Safety Manager for a helicopter company. My accommodation costs were about £1k per month including diesel...I cycled to work each day. I didn't live in luxury but my room was entirely self-contained, useful and relatively cheap and with clean sheets each week. I had friendly landlords who gave me meals and very nice drinks too. It wast a pleasure to rent from them.
The you look at working away from home and that the employer makes an offer to you - you have to enter into a negotiation with the employer - stating what your expected salary should exceed to allow you take up their offer - i.e. you can't afford to live there unless you get x amount (and always more than your minimums) Most civvy employers are not bound by pay scales and your pay is negotiable...thats why no-one in civvies talks about pay (or politics, come to that) Don't turn down an offer until all aspects have been explored.
And CT is still a liney, not paid for what he knows. Unlike me when he met me. I am now retired - a year late.
I was working and living just outside ULEZ as a QM/CM and Safety Manager for a helicopter company. My accommodation costs were about £1k per month including diesel...I cycled to work each day. I didn't live in luxury but my room was entirely self-contained, useful and relatively cheap and with clean sheets each week. I had friendly landlords who gave me meals and very nice drinks too. It wast a pleasure to rent from them.
The you look at working away from home and that the employer makes an offer to you - you have to enter into a negotiation with the employer - stating what your expected salary should exceed to allow you take up their offer - i.e. you can't afford to live there unless you get x amount (and always more than your minimums) Most civvy employers are not bound by pay scales and your pay is negotiable...thats why no-one in civvies talks about pay (or politics, come to that) Don't turn down an offer until all aspects have been explored.
And CT is still a liney, not paid for what he knows. Unlike me when he met me. I am now retired - a year late.
Keyser Söze
Corporal
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The decline in numbers within TG1 has been going on for well over decade now and the 'up-aboves' have done Sweet FA about it other than consistently kick this particular can down the road. In the summer 2010 Greg Bagwell visited the old folks home after requesting to speak with all the TG1 TM's and above on the STN and hear things from the horses mouth. (The fecking Chf Clk+his b1tch was also in attendance - go figure ) He asked us 'where were his ditch diggers'? which I thought was ironic given the landscape back then. He accepted that TG1's manning decline was inevitable and we should perhaps 'work smarter not harder'. Of course there were much sucking of teeth and guffawing and needless arse kissing, but crucially he offered nothing tangible as a solution. I PVR'd and left end of 2010. I had self-studied my aircraft licences and had been working voluntarily for a civilian MRO during leave and weekends - I got a job with Ryanair as a LWTR Engineer and was paid approximately £39k p/a so slightly less than I was earning as a C/T, but I did not hold a type rating at that point and that would increase once obtained, after gaining suitable experience. Roll forward to today in 2024 and RYR are paying circa £90K+ for a B737NG rated LAE including shift pay. So the draw for guys serving nowadays is far greater than 14 years ago. Of course various WO's have blamed AirTanker and the King Air sqn for highlighting this as a career step - again an extremely naive approach by those WO's who should frankly take a look in the mirror as to why guys are leaving in such numbers.
The only solution IMHO is to have a root and branch trade review and Mutty's suggestion has some merit I think. I have met guys who were 'aircraft engineers' but had never touched one in their careers, instead they had been on Software Teams doing the Mon-Fri /8-5 gig, they had done their BSc's, MSc's via distance learning and had high profile 2nd duties etc etc consequently their promotion trajectory was excellent ,,,, until they became C/T or F/S on a FJ sqn and their credibility suffered in that environment (eg had to learn how to write an SJAR they'd not had subordinates previously).
This 1 size fits all Trade analogy really doesn't work. Example if you want to develop SW and have the skills to do so, then join up in that specialisation and get paid accordingly, make comparisons with your civ' equivalent its an extremely specialised and well paid career. Conversely if you want to fix aircraft join up in that field, work the shifts and learn your trade and make comparisons to your civ' counterpart ( please DO NOT compare the job as an LAE with RYR (for example) with a boggo Cpl or Snec job on a sqn and say I should get £90k because the roles are not comparable) so compare like with like. If you work aircraft and do the shifts and time away then guys should get recognised for that. What the RAF does is pay everyone by their rank, irrespective of their job/specialisations/responsibility levels so obviously guys on the sqn's are gonna say 'balls to this'! If the bosses say 'We can't do that' , then TG1 is doomed.
Food for thought, Aircrew get specialist pay for flying aircraft so why not for other trades? The draw for pilots to join BA/ EJ/RYR is strong, but no stronger than for the engineers
The only solution IMHO is to have a root and branch trade review and Mutty's suggestion has some merit I think. I have met guys who were 'aircraft engineers' but had never touched one in their careers, instead they had been on Software Teams doing the Mon-Fri /8-5 gig, they had done their BSc's, MSc's via distance learning and had high profile 2nd duties etc etc consequently their promotion trajectory was excellent ,,,, until they became C/T or F/S on a FJ sqn and their credibility suffered in that environment (eg had to learn how to write an SJAR they'd not had subordinates previously).
This 1 size fits all Trade analogy really doesn't work. Example if you want to develop SW and have the skills to do so, then join up in that specialisation and get paid accordingly, make comparisons with your civ' equivalent its an extremely specialised and well paid career. Conversely if you want to fix aircraft join up in that field, work the shifts and learn your trade and make comparisons to your civ' counterpart ( please DO NOT compare the job as an LAE with RYR (for example) with a boggo Cpl or Snec job on a sqn and say I should get £90k because the roles are not comparable) so compare like with like. If you work aircraft and do the shifts and time away then guys should get recognised for that. What the RAF does is pay everyone by their rank, irrespective of their job/specialisations/responsibility levels so obviously guys on the sqn's are gonna say 'balls to this'! If the bosses say 'We can't do that' , then TG1 is doomed.
Food for thought, Aircrew get specialist pay for flying aircraft so why not for other trades? The draw for pilots to join BA/ EJ/RYR is strong, but no stronger than for the engineers
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SausageFingers
LAC
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I work on shift with LAE's and have the exact same authorizations of CRS, ADF, CoCR, infact all certification rights that the LAE's have. In some cases I have more if you consider Engine Ground Run and Assessor rights, Borescope, and Composite inspection. And just like LAE's, my stamp is linked to any jobs for the lifetime of the aircraft and am just as accountable in court as they are. So I think my 'boggo SNEC job' and my RAF colleagues are comparable. It is the main driver for PVRs in my Sqn.
The RAF works more and more with AMO's to deliver engineering on aircraft. It should show it's engineers the same respect that it shows civies with their lucrative contracts.
Keyser Söze
Corporal
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So I assume you work at either BZN on Airtanker/ Waddo on 14 sqn/ or Northolt ? I am out of the loop these days so forgive my ignorance. Comparisons are difficult to make. For example have you completed your licence modules? If not why not? I have heard many mechanics saying that they should be an LAE but they can not pass the modules so they instantly lose all credibility. If your LAE counterparts are not engine runners, then why not? Is this some local RAF BS rule which the organisation are not willing to let your LAE counterparts gain approvals in 'EGRs' 'boros' 'composite inspections' etc? There must be a local reason why that is not happening, since it is well within the scope of LAE privileges.
I have been out of mil for over 14yrs now and have had 3 proper jobs plus a few short term contracts - whilst I agree the Aviation world is extremely varied, which makes things difficult to make comparisons particularly on salaries (on-shore rotary v off-shore rotary/ internal UK airlines v international airlines / General Aviation etc). All are LAEs but the local job requirements/shifts can differ widely.
Another unique aspect of the mil world (which you are within) compared to civ Aviation, is the lack of numbers of guys working on shift (for RYR for eg). Hence why LAEs can, and do everything (from tyre inflations/towing/refuels/fault invest/rectification/daily's / MEL deferrals / ADs SB's /plan the maintenance on the aircraft etc etc etc etc etc); Whereas in the mil there's SAC's who do the routine line tasks (aircraft towing changing tyres fluid replens) JEngO/SEngO doing their 'reds & greens' so there is plenty of man-power in the mil environment, that is often not the case in civ .
The reason why the RAF works more and more with AMO's is that the RAF have failed to recognise what you do now, and what I used to do when I was serving, hence why I left and I do not regret it for one minute. I hold full B1.1/ B1.2/ B1.3/ B2/B3 + C with multiple types - Cover is King!! So don't let anyone tell you differently - my advice, for what its worth the RAF ain't gonna change so leave and prove your worth and when you do that we can have a beer and you may look back and agree with Keyser
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Keyser Söze
Corporal
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Post the last Labour budget, 2nd home purchases will now come with a very hefty additional £££££ stamp duty cost - something to consider
Flumpdaddy
LAC
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Yep and as expected it's not enough for me to withdraw my PVR, although I'm sure plenty others will be happy to stick around for it.The announcement video, amount, RoS and when all got leaked this morning.
If you're serving and entitled, you probably already know
Official & public announcements expected this afternoon
Details???
Flumpdaddy
LAC
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For those that qualify, £30k split over 2 payments for 3 year RoS. Payments will be a year apart starting from 1/4/25
Keyser Söze
Corporal
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To be honest SF, would it be a fair statement to say your current posting is not typical of the wider RAF?
I do have sympathy with your views, however, I was primarily talking about the normal RAF sqn Typhoon or F35 and as I indicated my experience of RAF techie life is nearly 15 years out of date.
But if you can't beat 'em, then why not join 'em? Get your modules done, use your current employment environment to get the relevant experience logged and signed off, do a type course on your resettlement and Bob's yer uncle
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Until very recently I was an LAE and Quality/Compliance/Safety Manager for my last few jobs. Since I left the RAF in 1999 I have worked for airlines, AMOs and Design and Production organisations and for commuter and airline aircraft, for individual and fleet helicopters and even one airship. I was 737 Classic authorised and EC145 qualified (I never got an auth for that). I qualified for my CAA Licences some 10 years before I left the RAF (caught in 2-year pension traps and overseas tours) and Logging my experience by working 'out of hours' for local air ambulances, etc, doing snag busting before the certifiers showed up and helping with 100hr checks.
When I eventually PVR'd after 24 years in, I moved straight into QA for an MRO. Within a year I was doing imports and exports of aircraft to/from Montenegro and Vietnam. Whisky bottles were sent to me for getting our older Stansted Line workers their A licences when they could have done it themselves (and I did send them back). I ended up as B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 when I left the RAF with just that one type added - perfectly satisfied to work on multi-turbine engined and multi-turbine engined helicopters.
The difference between a senior rank aircraft Techie and any LAE is the authority they can carry. An LAE has potential for authority to do almost any maintenance task on an aircraft outside the hangar, i.e. not in the MRO environment. In Civvy Street this includes the capability to bore scope and then ground run aeroplanes - and helicopters too (Pending training and insurance considerations, of course). In the RAF we had to jump through hoops to let a really confused jockey sit on a crew-room seat in the cockpit to do a blades off ground run on a chinook.
To be clear, the LAE, by means of having a LWTR followed by a type rating, can do everything in the RAF's aircraft systems up to and including the authorisations of a Group Captain Engineer. The only thing they cannot do is work outside their Authorisations or outside the AMM or the current regulations. (there, thats my QA head still on then)
When I eventually PVR'd after 24 years in, I moved straight into QA for an MRO. Within a year I was doing imports and exports of aircraft to/from Montenegro and Vietnam. Whisky bottles were sent to me for getting our older Stansted Line workers their A licences when they could have done it themselves (and I did send them back). I ended up as B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 when I left the RAF with just that one type added - perfectly satisfied to work on multi-turbine engined and multi-turbine engined helicopters.
The difference between a senior rank aircraft Techie and any LAE is the authority they can carry. An LAE has potential for authority to do almost any maintenance task on an aircraft outside the hangar, i.e. not in the MRO environment. In Civvy Street this includes the capability to bore scope and then ground run aeroplanes - and helicopters too (Pending training and insurance considerations, of course). In the RAF we had to jump through hoops to let a really confused jockey sit on a crew-room seat in the cockpit to do a blades off ground run on a chinook.
To be clear, the LAE, by means of having a LWTR followed by a type rating, can do everything in the RAF's aircraft systems up to and including the authorisations of a Group Captain Engineer. The only thing they cannot do is work outside their Authorisations or outside the AMM or the current regulations. (there, thats my QA head still on then)
Keyser Söze
Corporal
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Correct, but do they have to wear a blue suit? Is it feasible to civilianise that role?
Only problem might be that the MOD civ salary offered could be too low to attract suitably qualified personnel, who do not have a pension to bolster.
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Pensions are, and must always be, separate from salary.
Flumpdaddy
LAC
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Blue suit not needed but I agree, you will struggle to fill the positions without a decent wage. Keep in mind most are currently filled by sergeant's at £40k+ who are not likely to want to do it for less money as a civi. You don't get many volunteers for those jobs as it is.
Many stations try to go down the reservist route with some success; my place wanted to fill a full time position but could only get authority for 90 days a year, better than nothing. Also, a reserve techie is a rare thing should you need one. The few I've met have usually done 30+ years regular and just want a quiet job to see them to full retirement.