What's the future of OUR trade then?

[User Name]

Training

Training

Everyone is entitled to an opinion with regards to training. However if anyone thinks they can do it better then why not VOLUNTEER for instructor duties and show what a difference you can make to FOTF. No doubt the vast experience of those people who complain about the standards or lack of experience is just the sort of person we need to be instructors. Or doesnt it fit in with the 2 days 2 nights 4 off work ethic? Or is it a case of "All mouth and Trousers"?

- Discuss !

 

[Standards]

SSH

I disagree with you, IIRC when I went through TTF many moons ago the pass mark was 75% and you got a DP for 80%. The course marks are also being frigged at the moment anyway, some of them get 100% for a so called aircraft recognition test, then when they arrive cannot tell the difference between a Tornado and a Canberra!

A Q annotation for an instructor obviously means absolutely nothing as it does not improve the knowledge of the trainee does it. Either put instructors into FOTF who have some proper experience or lets not bother and if you are convinced that OJT is the best form of training then lets cut out the middleman and disband FOTF and send the ACs straight to designated units from Halton. We could divvy up the instructors that are thrown up by FOTF closing and that will give the designated Teerminal Trg units more bods to train with. Just think of all the money that will be saved, the LACs will be taught properly from the start, in a real environment, they won't have to be re-programmed out of their "Shawburyisms". Eureka........problem solved.

Hmmmmmm, how to retort to this one without it becoming an(other) open argument.

1. Course marks are being frigged;

Quite a sweeping allegation for someone to post on here. What proof do you have that this is the case. When I went through the school some 15 years ago, admittidely the course then was undertaken under gunfire whilst lighting goose neck flares and the pass mark was higher, I didn't know the difference between a Tornado and a F4. Do you know what happened? My screen taught me. If someone turns up at your unit and has some knowledge lacking then why not take the time to teach them? My screen also taught me many other "isms" that concerned the unit I was at. Things which Shawbury didn't have the time to teach in a short course.

2. A Q annotation for an instructor means nothing;

How very crass. The course is designed and hosted by RAF Halton. If you have a problem with the content of the Instructors course then please speak to the people who design and run it. All of the instructors currently in post have a wide range of different postings and work environments. Much more so then people who do not instruct and yet these critics seem to know what is best for Shawbury and for the trade as a whole. If you have a problem with the personalities who are actually instructing then remember this. All instructors have to apply for the post, they have to be recommended by their chain of command and have to do a presentation to the Unit Education Officer and a Trade Specialist. Perhaps if there is doubt about someones ability to instruct then they should not be recommended for an instructional tour by someone in their reporting chain. If the RAF were to send trainees straight from Halton to, lets say an airbase like Marham, to cut out the middle man that is the inconvenience of FOTF. The airman then spends 2 or 3 years at Marham and then gets posted to Lyneham, wouldn't he take with him all the Marhamisms that he has picked up? He has only known the fast jet strike role and PR role that takes place in Norfolk (I am well aware that a lot more than that takes place but just for the sake of this thread...!) and is now thrust into the world of AT. Something he knows nothing about. Lyneham would have to start from scratch for a lot of the things that the AT world have to deal with. How could we overcome this? Perhaps hold a generic course teaching the basics of a trade which is one of the most diverse trades in the RAF.

Hold on a minute...........

Standards!

 

[Fenella]

Hey FOMP,I have the Q Instructor annotation and I can tell you that I am neither under par nor do I feel as though I wasted mine or anyone elses time when I was imparting information. The requirement that FOTF has is to ensure those cheeky chappies who leave their shores have reached Training Performance Standard (TPS). OJT at the unit will bring them to Operational Performance Standards (OPS), making them a useable asset. As far as I can see, FOTF does that quite well, albeit with an out of date syllabus (which I believe is being sorted), so I do think that your last comments were harsh.

We all know that OJT is a massive drain on already short staffed units, are you telling us that you are short staffed? are you telling us you can't cope? Join the ever expanding club my friend!!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

FOMP, I worked hard for my Instructor Qual, and worked hard when I had it.. Maybe you should have a go at the Halton course

 

[JFOM]

Hmmmm,

Its very easy to criticise an environment when one doesn't understand what goes on there. We are the first to admit that there are problems with the course but our hands are tied by the powers that be as they insist that we must teach (sorry instruct) certain information. Every instructor here knows that the course is too short, every instructor here knows that there is lots of other information that should be taught, but our hands are tied until the heirarchy decide that we can go ahead with some sweeping changes.

As for experience levels of instructors, I can only echo Standards comments - the average experience level of a Cpl Instructor at Shawbury is 14 years. Furthermore each instructor has served on between 4 and 5 bases. How many Cpls are there out there with that sort of experience in this day an age? I would suggest that there is not many!

And finally, I simply have to comment on the 'sub-standard' instructors as mentioned by one individual. Well it is very easy for us to defend ourselves and say that each of us are very good instructors, but what you guys need is proof don't you? Well how about the ALI report? This report is impartial and has been done by an outside agency, therefore it is probably the most accurate assessment of instructor duties at RAF Shawbury.

ALI Inspection Report

Please turn to page 73 and read on.

If you guys are still adamant on your views - then I suggest that you re-evaluate your opinions based on facts rather than subjective views.

JFOMZ

 

[oasis]

As this is my first day reading all these lovely critisims I am inclined to wonder if any of us are perfect? No one is the font of all knowledge and to say we learn by our mistakes is ever true. However as this is my tenth tour I have to say that although there are definately flaws in the trade training there is a dire need to have a good training package when you get them to your unit. Just think of it as training a puppy!! You need to tell it continually what you want until it sinks in. If you cant be bothered to maintain their standards they will easy slip into their naughty lazy ways again. It is down to their FOMs and Jncos to ensure they are moulded at the beginning or unfortunately you only have yourself to blame!

Saying that I once visited the school where there are many people I know and respect. However the first lesson I sat in was wrong information. It was only about oktas and colour codes but still if you get it wrong here there really is no hope.

Its a shame nearly every thread is a whinge....is that the point or is there really nothing good left..(maybe a stupid question in itself)

 

[JFOM]

Mmmmm, I'd be interested to know when your visit was Oasis! But you are absolutely correct in what you say. Any training regime that claims to have everything correct is wrong IMO. There is always room for improvement.

I seem to remember a FOM complaining that a student that had been sent to him was nothing but a trouble maker, always late for work and always untidy in his appearance, when questioned how many times he'd been charged the FOM replied "er, he hasn't!" That in itself tells many stories, when graduates leave us they generally are well turned out, respectful and have shown all the qualities necessary of being good assistants. If their supervisors of their first posting do not maintain those qualities and pick individuals up for dropping below standards then it's no wonder people are complaining of the quality of individuals 'coming out' of shawbury, as it's all too easy to blame the source.

I remember at my last base, an LAC came in to my office dead chuffed at herself after having an argument with the Ops Officer (Ops Officer arguing with assistants aside!) I asked what the Corporal had been doing "oh just carrying on with his work!" I very quickly told the LAC the error of her ways, but as I was the same rank as the Corporal was unable to say anything to him other than a quiet word. Suffice to say, it's the responsibility of all ranks to ensure that standards and service ethos are maintained, it seems people are very reluctant to discipline individuals in this day and age. But it is imperative for us to resolve this constant issue of sub-standard airman, we do it at Shawbury - and it works! So rather than looking at others to blame, look at your own setup! Is discipline maintained? Are your JNCO's, SNCO's and PFOM's doing their job? If they are, then discipline and standards shouldn't be an issue!

 

[JFOM]

Yup we do!

 

[JFOM]

Yup!

The course is split into phases, Yellow, Red and Blue.

Yellow phase includes full kit inspections, bed packs etc.
Red phase includes twice weekly inspections in the block, with beds made (ie no bed packs!) The rest of the time inspections outside TTF
Blue phase includes inspections only outside TTF.

But at any stage a surprise inspection can be made of the rooms and if the rooms aren't up to standard or if needed for disciplinary reasons we can (and have) bust a course back to yellow phase!

 

[J Y Kelly]

Just a couple of questions JFOMz:

How many RAF Students do you expect to train in FY 2005/6?
Have you any numbers for FY 2006/7 yet?
What is the establishment breakdown for FOTF?
Is there a maximum tour length at FOTF?
You stated that the average experience level of a Cpl Instructor is 14 years, would imagine that many of you would be expecting promotion. Would you say that good ACR's are easier to get at FOTF or are they more difficult?
I understand that the FOTF course is still orientated towards working in a Tower, do you know the percentages of How TG9 is employed i.e. Air Traffic - Ops.

I like the comment on the report you linked to "there are frequent helicopter flights." I wonder why? Still the JP's weren't quiet.

 

[Old Skool Git]

As a newby to this here world of E-goat and looking through this thread and maybe if I can be bothered to anwser some of the questions posed by people here. In the mean time here's my thoughts on a few entries.

While I'm thinking about things, can't remember who raised the point about members of stafff going around the stns to see what was going on BUT I do believe that 2 instructors from FOTF did visit a vast amount of stns asking questions about what they do and how. Plus I understand from my contacts within the school that CATCS along with FOTS and FOTF also visited a number of stns to get feedback from them. Now if when they visited, people couldn't be bothered to say anything, then thats their problem and maybe, just maybe they need to get their backsides to Shawbury and see the kind of work that the instuctors do there.

Another point, all instructors at Shawbury are volunteers, nobody there got pinged for a slot.

FOMP: As for the falling standards, it's always been said since before my time that the standards have dropped and I bet that in 5-10 years time the kiddies from today will also be saying the thing: Standards have dropped since I joined up!!!!!

I also think that maybe some of the training problems that units are having is down to the standard of CFT and trainers at unit level. Get them to work at an acceptable level and not teach bad habits because it's easier than having to remember the correct way of doing things, then maybe standards will improve and the standard of assistants in both Ops and Towers will get better instead of gettting worse.

To Quote FOMz "Got to agree about the sylabus at TTF. Also ssat in on a class a year or to back, when I went up to have a look around; The (young) instructor was teaching aload of rubbish to the class. He obviously didn'y know what he was talking about, so what does that do to the trainees?"

Maybe if you thought it was that bad, then maybe you should have approached a member of staff there i.e. the FS or is it the simple case of it's not my problem?

Anyway bored now, as I could go on for pages and pages, so the last thing I'll say if the course was extended AND money was spend on FOTF instead of it being spent on JATCC, then maybe FOTF could indeed improve the end product BUT again they work with what they are sent by the AFCO's and what Halton let pass through there doors.

Personally I think that the guys and girls at FOTF do a great job considering what they have to go through to get the job done.

As for JY Kelly's last post

5 Years at FOTF as instuctor is all that is allowed before back into the melting pot
I think ACR's are the same but looked at in a better light on promotion board (if it makes sense)
Yup I think you're right but from what I understand they are trying to make it even split as they think the same as you it 's to ATC orinatated.

Apart from that I don't know numbers going through the school and I think it's the right place to talk about numbeers going trough the school if you want to know then a simple phone call would answer your question.

Right time for a drink anybody else want one?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I agree with Old Skool Git, the quality of the youngsters coming through is no worse than 15-20 years ago. There are good and bad coming out of Shawbury.
Where the trade has fallen down is the quality of the JNCOs, in the past 5 years or so, the very average SAC has managed to get picked up, when before they would never have been considered in a month of Sundays.
They are poor man-managers, have little experience and pass their lapsidaisical approach on to the new LACs, setting a poor example for them to follow. They are resistant to authority, have an attitude and are uneasy to use their rank to discipline the juniors, prefering the SNCOs to do it for them, or to let bad discipline and poor work practices slip by because they dont want to confront the culprits.
The majority of JNCOs at FOTF are not of this ilk and do try their hardest, the onus is on the dross of newly promoted SACs at station level.
Flak jacket on standby.

 

[Standards]

Worked with a lad once for 3 years, who was late at least once a week, had trouble turning up wearing a clean and ironed shirt and wasn't the worlds best assistant, moves to a new unit - 1 assesment later; promoted because he got a rec. Doesn't bode well.

Three years!!! Three bloody years and you couldn't get him to work on time or iron a shirt!!!! And you expect FOTF to turn out seasoned veterans in 8 weeks!!!!

You are right, something doesn't bode well. However, I do not feel that it is the promotion system in this case, is it!!!!

FOMz, you keep throwing them up...... we'll keep hitting them!!!

 

[Wg Cdr ComfeyChair-Smyth]

Off topic:

The Good:

Just a short note to say, this forum seems to be dealing with trade specific articles far in excess of any others. Its probably because we unenlightened are at a loss as to what you are talking about but glad that you peeps are finding it useful, and that you continue to do so. Keep up the good work.

The Bad:

Please be advised that, although you have right to express yourselves in a manner which you see fit, E-Goat does not condone or agree with the opinions generated - we only provide a medium to express yourselves.


The Ugly:

Any directed asides at an individual or posts which no longer can be classed as banter or become personal will be deleted. Continued abuse from any member could result in member privileges being revoked.

Thanks people for your continued input.

 

[Standards]

Yawn, Your constant jibes are getting boring now. But I'm not bitter...........

What can you do, if those above you don't have the spine to back you up and do their jobs?
How many weeks of teas and keys can you give?

Maybe you should be WOTG9 then standards and bring everything and everyone up to your obvious impecable standard!

Oh how we wish we could be you!

zzzzzzzzz

If my jibes bore you so much why do you keep replying to them?

1 "What can you do, if those above you don't have the spine to back you up and do their jobs?"

Finding a theme developing here FOMz. Everything that you have complained about and highlighted as an issue is never your fault. Always someone elses. Strange that.

2 "How many weeks of teas and keys can you give?"

Besides the fact that what you are doing could be seen as an illegal punishment, if one week did nothing to rectify the lad's problem then why oh why did you give him more? Never mind him not learning from this "punishment", it seems you didn't learn either. There are more than one way to skin a cat.

3 "Maybe you should be WOTG9 then standards (sic) and bring everything and everyone up to your obvious impecable standard!"

It is my opinion that WOTG9 is more of a policy making post rather than that of disciplinarian. If you need to seek guidance on matters involving troublesome airman then perhaps a visit to the SWO would serve you better.

4 "Oh how we wish we could be you!"

How very kind of you to say. Sorry, you are you and not even WOTG9 can do anything about that dear chap!

 

[Standards]

Didn't think I was attempting to make anyone look foolish. Just defending the reputation of FOTF from it's many (unqualified) detractors.

If, in doing that, there has been an opportunity to point out other things that may help others, then I have taken that opportunity.

Standards!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Is this the right room for an argument?

 

[FOMP]

As I've said before FOTF have to deal with the youfs that Halton send them so alot of the time FOTF are up against it before they start, so they do have my sympathies on that one. That said, maybe someone whose posting from Shawbury can tell us who the mysterious "powers that be" are who are blocking getting the course content right, someone please tell us. There seems to be an appeal from FOTF for detractors to go to Shawbury and see for themslves the instructing that is going on there, well reading through the whole of this thread several posters have! Just read their comments not many are positive are they.

I promise I will try and be a bit more constructive than I have been of late (due to frustration, love for my trade, caring about standards etc..). But I have pointed out discrepancies and inaccuracies to the school in the past so have other people I know who spent a couple of days there observing, so some one please tell me why 5 years later the same innacuracies are still being taught!

I would like to know the extensive list of stations visited in prep for the new syllabus can anyone tell me where they were...please?

What are the forecasts for numbers of students to go through FOTF in the next year, it is pertinent (to those of us at terminal units that have manning gaps) and surely not a state secret.

Final point here for "Standards" and friends, yes we know that good arrival training, OFT/OJT programmes and effective training screens who have actually done some practical BMD and are pretty good assistants themselves are a pre-requisite for a good training system. BUT with FOAs at terminal units only doing around 24 month tours and taking around 9 of those months to get their SAC up before we can start to prepare them to become screens, how many months of productive training do you think we are getting out of them? Plus the fact that HQ 3 Gp say we should be moving these same SACs around the Bazaars on station to widen their experience, then we are fighting a losing battle aren't we.

Solutions:

Revise and update the FOTF course NOW, no more excuses lets get on with it and lengthen the course if you think you need to.

First tours must be at least 3 years.

Don't promote anyone to Cpl who hasn't at least 2 tours under their belt at differing locations. Some time ago a certain Wg Cdr from HQ 3Gp/ MATO promised that PMA would be managing people's careers, they haven't been because of massive promotion quotas, but it looks like things are slowing down now so lets start managing careers properly.

Previous posters were right, sloppy NCOs leads to sloppy JRs if you see something wrong then do something about it, we will all benefit in the end. That includes SNCO Controllers who just love to tell PFOMs/FOMS that they saw Bloggs with his hands in his pockets outside the Mess, but leave it to the PFOM to give the b*llocking as he's one of your blokes!

If you write ACRs then tell the truth, don't recommend people for promotion if they are not ready. Say that they aren't, tell the individual truthfully and then guide them through the next year and try to help them to become promotable. I think that this one may solve itself with the slow down in promotions that appear to be coming back.

We can put it right if theres a will and we all put the efoort in with some leadership from the top!

 

[izitme]

Revise and update the FOTF course NOW, no more excuses lets get on with it and lengthen the course if you think you need to.

To quote the great Mr Wogan "Your leaning against an open door with this one" I think you will find (if you bother to research it) that FOTF are desparate to update and deliver a more suitable course to the world of TG9. Unfortunatley unless you are member of the gods of controlling HQSTC and the othe immortals are not interested in developing the Trade. An extensive review was conducted 5 years ago and was filed in the bin by those of Sqn Ldr rank and above.

Until these people are brought on board then I think you will find nothing is going to change!!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Cheekymonkey,

I have noticed that you have made comment about Standards and FOMz having a bit of handbags.

I know both parties concerned and both are big enough and ugly enough to fight their own corners and if it gets personal then it will be stopped, I cant see anything personal as yet!

As an aside it is good to see such passion about the trade and I do hope that the 3gp powers that be are reading what is being said and the passion that is held about what goes on.

Its plainly obvious that the course needs updating, if you have any constructive ideas about what needs incorporating, bung the guys an email with your thoughts!

Now then SNCO controllers, there is a good one!! Who is first?