Base Closure Annoucement

Anyone heard any more speculation/information on when it's rumoured to be? It seemed to be the generally held belief that it would be 'after the Scottish elections', but I haven't seen anything that mentions a specific date.

Is it now a straight fight between Lossie and Leuchars, and possibly one other?

 

[SepticCalling]

"best for the nation won". Is that your personal opinion? You seem to suggest it was a competition..... pretty callous and narrow minded, considering the probable outcomes. This is my opinion:
1. People who did time (11/2 to 2 years) at Con so they had a chance to serve at Leu, will be going to Los.
2. Los pers posted to Mar.
3. UK air defense less capable due to increased Wheels of ground time and further from main threat areas.
4. Increased expenditure on infrastructure/mothball current infrastructure after considerable cost. (Taxpayer gets another kick in the swingers)
5. Los Runways may stay open to the same stats as Leu with the newly procured snow clearance equip, however a normal 3 hour drive further north when there is a blizzard will grind Logs to a halt for an indefinite period obviously. again impacting on capability. On top of that there is also a greater threat of reduced visibility from fog.
6. What becomes MEDA
7. A couple of other issues that I am not prepared to mention.

Maybe the best for the Army for the high priced help to access the R&A and that is about it. If the Army are to build more to house troops for another shake down in areas and numbers; why not build near the ranges in D & G ?

First of all, I would say pot is calling to kettle here. No, it is not my personal opinion, thats why Leuchars is closing and yes, it was a competition and the unit that ticked every single box won the day. That is the same selection process in life.

It is risible that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as narrow minded and callous. When you put on a uniform and swear that oath, you consign yourself to a life of adventure, boredom, adversity and service. It isnt there for your convenience, and when you start to think like that, it is time to go. When in uniform, you get posted, thats why you join.

As for threat areas, what tosh...if the bogey is near its target, then you have failed....Lossie is the best choice, look at a mercator chart, try and understand Great Circles and not Rhumb and it sticks out like tesicles on a skinny dog. By the way, a quick bit of research shows that the micro climate at Lossie ensures it is more free from extremes of weather.

Looking at your diatribes, I would say that you are driven purely by self interest, and not by the rationality which Military commanders have to display when making unpopular decisions! As is, I hope you enjoy East Anglia, it is a super place to serve!

Joe_90, although showing only reasons of personal gain, at least has the moxy to admit his reasoning, perhaps you should.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

Lossie is four hours drive from Dundee,

Only if a dead Miss Daisy is driving. 2 and a half hours max would be closer to the truth.

 

[gordon bennett]

Some B******s being posted on this thread !

Number said to be around 1,300 . 2 Units RSDG ? + 1 but on news last night doubt if ever due to next round of army cuts . Busy doing economic and social profile . Income will fall heavily due to squaddie income a lot less than a long service technician eg

Do you not think that mostly the RAF and Army are not on the same payscales? I think that there may be technicians etc serving in the army! If you are talking about infantrymen, I would imagine that young single squaddies will have more disposable income to spend on beer than a long serving RAF type!

I've been avoiding this thread as I'm pretty dissapointed that Leuchars is going and that seems to be a problem for a lot of folk on here. I'm not going to try and dress it up as some sort of outrage over UK air defence (although with my limited knowledge of what QRA can do I believe it's better at Leuchars than Lossie).

I'm upset beause there is no longer a Camp within 4 hours of Central Scotland. I didn't join the RAF to live with mum and dad. I've been posted all over the UK during my time in and I've really enjoyed it but I've only recently moved to Leuchars. I'm upset because I wanted my son to grow up able to visit his grandparents for the day. I was thinking of settling somewhere in the Central Belt and that option has been taken away from my family and me until the day I leave.

These are some of my purely selfish reasons for wanting Leuchars to stay and I think they are similar to the reasons most folk are upset about the loss of the Camp. Septic calling has helpfully pointed out that other Camps have shut in the past, generally though if people wanted to stay in that location there was somewhere else to go, there no longer is in Scotland. Lossie is four hours drive from Dundee, I've seen plenty of upset people moving from the likes of Brize Norton to Leeming, a similar journey timewise.

It's not about the defence of the UK for most of us, it's about the fact that not only are we Airmen we also have a life outside of the RAF. Something encouraged by the Service with the withdrawal of a lot of perks such as travel warrants. Allow us to be upset at the fact that after being encouraged to settle the only choice is to either live apart or move them with you. This is the first place I can think of that's shut while I've been in that has meant ALL those who stay in the Service have no opportunity to at least try and move to the next Camp to stay in their own homes.

Someone's upset that their son can't visit granny for the day ... not the strongest argument for keeping open a flying station. I hope you weren't running the 'Keep the RAF in Leuchars' campaign.

 

[Stevienics]

Au contraire...

.......the candour delivered by J90 is refreshing. When all is said and done and if indeed there was so little to choose between the two, the mere fact that Lossie is a complete toilet compared to the more civilised and cosmopolitan Leuchars seems perfectly rational as a tipping point.

I am truly at a loss to understand why one might want to venture anywhere up the Great Glen, except for hunting or by misadventure.

Filthy savages.

 

[Teh Wal]

....or do you agree with them and like all old people, you try not to moan but you cant help yourself.

You were doing quite well but then you had to go and spoil it by generalising *sigh*.
And for the record he used the phrase "from what I've read" just the once. I'll guess it's because he's 400 miles away from ISL so doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the actual depth of feeling in both areas. It does not imply that he can't think for himself.


Let's face it guys and gals, Joe90 has pretty much hit the nail on the head: how many people in the RAF put camps on their dream sheets because they think that they personally are going to provide a valuable service to Air Power (well, besides the obvious one on here!)? Not many I would suggest. Virtually everyone picks the spots they wish to be posted to due to it's actual location... be it aircraft type, schools, family, surrounding area, etc, etc but certainly not because of Air Power. So what the serving community has lost is a great location to live in. It happens and will continue to happen (750 airfields across the UK at the end of WW2, how many now?), though there's not much more to pare away :0. We can argue back and forth on here til we're blue in the face but it won't make the slightest difference to anything because much of what is posted is personal opinion. The reasons for closure of a base may not always be obvious to the folk on the work face but the decisions are made by those at The Top and if you want to understand and make those type of decisions then get yourself to The Top.

 

[Teh Wal]

Only if a dead Miss Daisy is driving. 2 and a half hours max would be closer to the truth.

Hmmm, closer to 3 IMO (if driving sensibly, and of course dependent on the time of the day especially around ABN) however once the new bypass goes in around Aberdeen, over the next few years, 2 1/2 hours would be more achievable.

 

[FOGHORN LEGHORN]

Anyone who thinks the decision was made on what base was the most suitable in military terms is IMO deluded. This decision, as with every decision made by the people who run this country, was as a result of political backslaps. They all make decisions based on votes and deals between themselves and not one thought for logic. Personally I've accepted the decision and the RAF keeps rolling on but the only reason I've posted on this thread in the first place is reading some of the high and mighty drivel. They've made their deals, discussed political pros and cons at Westminster and then gone with what will suit THEM not us. IMO of course.

 

[Zeebad]

First of all, I would say pot is calling to kettle here. No, it is not my personal opinion, thats why Leuchars is closing and yes, it was a competition and the unit that ticked every single box won the day. That is the same selection process in life.

It is risible that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as narrow minded and callous. When you put on a uniform and swear that oath, you consign yourself to a life of adventure, boredom, adversity and service. It isnt there for your convenience, and when you start to think like that, it is time to go. When in uniform, you get posted, thats why you join.

As for threat areas, what tosh...if the bogey is near its target, then you have failed....Lossie is the best choice, look at a mercator chart, try and understand Great Circles and not Rhumb and it sticks out like tesicles on a skinny dog. By the way, a quick bit of research shows that the micro climate at Lossie ensures it is more free from extremes of weather.

Looking at your diatribes, I would say that you are driven purely by self interest, and not by the rationality which Military commanders have to display when making unpopular decisions! As is, I hope you enjoy East Anglia, it is a super place to serve!

Joe_90, although showing only reasons of personal gain, at least has the moxy to admit his reasoning, perhaps you should.

What have you put forward to address the points I have made? You seem to be jumping on the band wagon, basing your opinion on the decision that had already been made by " Military commanders". Do you mean the government or our airships and generals? Do they always get the correct intel? Do they always make the correct decision? If it was a competition between the 2 stations; where are the rules for this competition? Was there an entry fee? Was it the battle bus that swung it? So in your opinion Lossie ticked every single box! Please enlighten me to the wording for each of the boxes, especially the ones Leu failed to tick. So the reason QRA is moving is because "No, it is not my personal opinion, thats why Leuchars is closing"? You were born with a clipboard? Your life must be pretty strange if you configure your decision making process on base closures. I only accused you of being callous and one other of being narrow minded. So, you now are telling me what I think and that you join the RAF to get posted. Personally, I joined to fix planes. You seem to be very lavish with the tar brush.

No matter how you dress your dog up: Air Defense is about just that. Most of the aircraft entering UK airspace and covered by QRA (N) will be going to Edin, Glas, Pres or Aber. The most likely time to take control of an a/c, for it to be used as a weapon is as close to its final destination as possible whilst still having manoeuvrability to select a desired target. Logs still has to pass through poor road conditions to get to your more foggy than Leu micro climate.

"diatribes"? How can I be forceful on a forum? Bitter, yes, but that has been extrapolated due to unguided missiles like yourself offering wisdom on a stick, when all I have stated is that it is a very poor decision to move QRA(N). As far as East Anglia is concerned, you are snide and again presumptuous but fortunately wrong. Personally, the closure of Leu does not affect me in the slightest, so my reasoning is not of selfishness, it is purely subjective.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. By the way you are not an intelligence officer; are you?

 

[PTR Hoar]

I don't think anyone is going to turn round and say that having QRA in leuchars was a bad idea. I just think that some people think that QRA is the be all and end all of the everything. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it isnt important but there were ( I hope ) an incredible amoun of factors in deciding which base was to close, because, let's face it, one was definitely going to go. The decision has been made. End of. I really think we are just going round and round in circles on this thread now making the same points but using bigger sticks on each reply to make them.
At the risk of bring offence to both sides of the fence maybe we should just close this thread down now. The only person who I think has been honest with themselves so far is joe_90 and it was refreshing to read in amongst all the crap to be honest!!

 

[muttywhitedog]

Leuchars is going, we just have to deal with it.

And on the bright side, its only Scotland's economy that suffers.

Maybe granny will have to start paying £1 for her presecriptions now, or little Johnny's free school meals will now cost 50p, or the McTavishes of Dundee will have to pay tuition fees for their offspring to attend St Andrews Uni.

 

[Zeebad]

I don't think anyone is going to turn round and say that having QRA in leuchars was a bad idea. I just think that some people think that QRA is the be all and end all of the everything. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it isnt important but there were ( I hope ) an incredible amoun of factors in deciding which base was to close, because, let's face it, one was definitely going to go. The decision has been made. End of. I really think we are just going round and round in circles on this thread now making the same points but using bigger sticks on each reply to make them.
At the risk of bring offence to both sides of the fence maybe we should just close this thread down now. The only person who I think has been honest with themselves so far is joe_90 and it was refreshing to read in amongst all the crap to be honest!!

Is that you using a stick! And in YOUR opinion all other views are crap. I have never said Q is the be all.... it is a bit like your trousers... you can do without them but you still need them....and I have been honest.

 

[SepticCalling]

What have you put forward to address the points I have made? You seem to be jumping on the band wagon, basing your opinion on the decision that had already been made by " Military commanders". Do you mean the government or our airships and generals? Do they always get the correct intel? Do they always make the correct decision? If it was a competition between the 2 stations; where are the rules for this competition? Was there an entry fee? Was it the battle bus that swung it? So in your opinion Lossie ticked every single box! Please enlighten me to the wording for each of the boxes, especially the ones Leu failed to tick. So the reason QRA is moving is because "No, it is not my personal opinion, thats why Leuchars is closing"? You were born with a clipboard? Your life must be pretty strange if you configure your decision making process on base closures. I only accused you of being callous and one other of being narrow minded. So, you now are telling me what I think and that you join the RAF to get posted. Personally, I joined to fix planes. You seem to be very lavish with the tar brush.

No matter how you dress your dog up: Air Defense is about just that. Most of the aircraft entering UK airspace and covered by QRA (N) will be going to Edin, Glas, Pres or Aber. The most likely time to take control of an a/c, for it to be used as a weapon is as close to its final destination as possible whilst still having manoeuvrability to select a desired target. Logs still has to pass through poor road conditions to get to your more foggy than Leu micro climate.

"diatribes"? How can I be forceful on a forum? Bitter, yes, but that has been extrapolated due to unguided missiles like yourself offering wisdom on a stick, when all I have stated is that it is a very poor decision to move QRA(N). As far as East Anglia is concerned, you are snide and again presumptuous but fortunately wrong. Personally, the closure of Leu does not affect me in the slightest, so my reasoning is not of selfishness, it is purely subjective.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. By the way you are not an intelligence officer; are you?

I am not sure why it seems you are annoyed with the fact that a decision has been made that you dont like, well oh dear, what a shame, never mind. To quote PG Wodehouse "Life is full of sadness...; and it matters not who, when or how that decision was made..it will not be reversed, get over it, the place that was chosen would on a prima facie basis, always win.

I assume you are either a NCO/ SNCO or junior officer, was not your promotion decided on a competitive basis?

Yes you stated that it was a poor decision, but that is only YOUR opinion and with all due respect and others would say you are wrong, if you fix aircraft, why are you commenting about tactical issues, of Air Defence? If you wanted to fix aircraft, you dont need to be in the Service of your Country. Are you also an expert on fighter control or an armchair strategist? Your diatribes read as someone who rather pompously believes that everything you write is the correct and only way and everyone else is clueless.


Not sure what is snide about wishing you well in East Anglia, lovely place, lovely people and even better, lovely pubs. Why not come out of the closet like Joe 90 bravely has and admit it, your reasoning is self based.

 

[PTR Hoar]

Is that you using a stick! And in YOUR opinion all other views are crap. I have never said Q is the be all.... it is a bit like your trousers... you can do without them but you still need them....and I have been honest.

I never said all other views are crap. I apologise if it's came across like that, it's just that this thread has turned into a complete b1tch fest, if you don't agree then so be it, just my stance on things.

 

[True Blue Jack]

if you fix aircraft, why are you commenting about tactical issues, of Air Defence? Are you also an expert on fighter control or an armchair strategist?

What's wrong with techies commenting on tactical, strategic or air defence issues? I wish more people would look beyond their immediate trade boundaries more often.

A couple of years from now we might be looking at a hole in the ground where Faslane used to be and lament that Zeebad and others were right all along. I doubt it, personally, but that's MY opinion.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

What's wrong with techies commenting on tactical, strategic or air defence issues? I wish more people would look beyond their immediate trade boundaries more often.

A couple of years from now we might be looking at a hole in the ground where Faslane used to be and lament that Zeebad and others were right all along. I doubt it, personally, but that's MY opinion.

By some of the rubbish spouted on here regarding what an Aircraft on Q could achieve from Leuchars you'd thuink we constantly have two aircraft doing a CAP around the major Scot's cities.

Surely the most important part of our air defence system is our RADAR network which will detect stuff far in advance of time to get wheels off the ground ever becomes an issue.

If an airliner suddenly departs its normal flightpath and ploughs into a city while above it the ten minutes difference in transit time between ISL and LEU is purely academical.

but then maybe I'm not disguising my personal upset at the closure of a base as some sort of critical lapse of the UK's Air Defence Strategy.

ps- for what its worth I would have enjoyed a posting to LEU but equally enjoyed most of my time spent at ISL

 

[SepticCalling]

What's wrong with techies commenting on tactical, strategic or air defence issues? I wish more people would look beyond their immediate trade boundaries more often.

A couple of years from now we might be looking at a hole in the ground where Faslane used to be and lament that Zeebad and others were right all along. I doubt it, personally, but that's MY opinion.

Nothing wrong with it at all, and it should be applauded if it were correct! Like most things, it is better not to comment at all, than do so with conviction and be wrong. Your chums argument would put scorn on Coningsby covering the Air defence for London and the South East for example.

As for holes in the ground because of Leuchars closing, there is absolutely no credence to that assertion. Again, take out a chart and plot the Great Circle distance between Coningsby to London, Devonport and Portsmouth...I think you will find that it is further away than any strategic target is from Lossie in Scotland so really the QRA argument dies.

For most of the year, I live in Northern Califronia and the US is undergoing huge defence cuts as well..Base closure is just as emotive in the US as in the UK with many similar arguments as those advanced by the people here.

I think you may find, sooner rather than later, HMS Neptune relocating to the sunny south.

 

[FOGHORN LEGHORN]

This will run and run. Mainly because certain people seem incapable of accepting that people have a different point of view to that of their own. They then seem to feel arrogant enough to put their points across as fact rather than opinion. As I have already said, I think the basis for the decision was political and nothing to do with Q or air defence issues. The government have shown no interest in logical defence decisions (aircraft carriers with no aircraft due in the not too distant) and I'm sure would scoff at a lot being written here. I liked Leuchars more than Lossiemouth, but I liked several camps that have closed. Think we should draw a line in the sand now, whilst some on here would do well to step back and consider for a minute that a perspective in contradiction to their own is no less relevant or important. This thread, for me at least, has run it's course.

I'll end with this.

I was also once as a young liney questioning the logic of what we were doing at 3am. Whilst my cpl agreed completely he gave me a nugget of advice.

"if you disagree with something you are told to do, by all means question it. But be aware of how far you go as one thing is for certain. No matter how right you are and how clearly you make your point, you will still end up doing it anyway."

No point complaining, it won't change anything.

 

[SepticCalling]

This will run and run. Mainly because certain people seem incapable of accepting that people have a different point if view to that of their own. They then seem to feel arrogant enough to put their points across as fact rather than opinion. As I have already said, I think the basis for the decision was political and nothing to do with Q or air defence issues. The government have shown no interest in logical defence decisions (aircraft carriers with no aircraft due in the not too distant) and I'm sure would scoff at a lot being written here. I liked Leuchars more than Lossiemouth, but I liked several camps that have closed. Think we should draw a line in the sand now, whilst some on here would do well to step back and consider for a minute that a perspective in contradiction to their own is no less relevant or important. This thread, for me at least, has run it's course.

Well that is Amen from me, a goodly call!!

 

[feckinG RANT]

There's obviously a lot of upset people, and if you're at Leuchars, then I'm truly sorry for you.

Something was mentioned about ticking boxes? The Stn Cmdr at Lossie briefed out some months ago that the basing decision was looking at many things but (not sure if it was his view or fact) there was three key issues.

1. What base could provide best for the support of Air Power

2. Infrastructure - How much will it cost to maintain the base and upgrade where needed in the short to mid-term future.

3. The political impact - how will the local area cope etc.


As the arguments seem to be Lossie vs. Leuchars...


1. Lossie and Leuchars both do well, one better than the other in one area, say QRA for Leuchars, but then Lossie is closer to ranges etc for GR role.

2. Lossie won. Leuchars would have needed a shed load of cash to take it forward to the mid-term future, say 5 to 15 years time.

3. Lossie won. The local area would obviously suffer in Fife, but look to say 10+ miles out and there is sufficient in the area to recover. Moray on the other hand, would not. Of course this is assuming the Army wouldn't move to Moray.


Not long after these points were mentioned I picked up on another point. The Army were apparently seen at Leuchars assessing the train line that (as far as I'm lead to believe) runs in to the camp. I was told it is only a short spur from a main line? Well, there are a lot of large mechanized vehicles to come back from Germany and they all need to be moved somehow. Currently, so I believe, this is done by rail...

As for QRA? I see this decision based on risk. Arguably Lossie is not as well placed as Leuchars, but then what is the risk of an attack requiring QRA? If it was sufficiently large enough we would have a QRA base on every coast line and next to every major city. As it is I'm guessing the risk is viewed to be at a level where Lossie is able to meet the requirements while balancing the financial aspect of maintaining QRA.

At the end of the day, money is not limitless, there has to be some give somewhere and it comes down to compromises. For the decision makers it would seem the overall Lossie was the better option to meet the majority of requirements.

Finally, it’s “defence”, not “defense”, we’re not Americans ;-)

 

[roslin]

Leuchars Railway SIDING! plus

Leuchars Railway SIDING! plus

The small branch line to the sidings were moved about 1.5 km towards Dundee on the ECML when the new fuel tank farm went up . The one into the camp directly went past less than 30 metres from the station sick quarters. The old one cannot be restored as the ECML was altered to allow non-stop trains mainly heavy freight a higher running speed through Leuchars station.
The local rag today reports than even if the army comes in stated numbers NE Fife economy will get £20 to £25 million less input than with the RAF there. Due to the real possibilty that the RRS (Scots) is going to lose one or two of its five. There is now a real possibilty that Leuchars will never get the quoted number and may close in favour of the RM Condor which is already mechanised infantry equipped . The Arbroath base is to be handed over to the Army in around 2015 when 45 goes to Plymouth.
However it is entirely possible that with the new brigades to be all arm it may have its own helicopters so there will be ACC at Leucharsafter all