Firefighters' strike - Nov 5th

Impeccable timing by the FBU.

BBC Report
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SPICE WEED

 

[BillyBunter]

Well what I have read recently is the Military will not be covering for the Fire Service on any future Strikes, im sure some deal was done the last tinme to bring in some other people.

I dont know who but somebody posted it not so long ago. So let them Strike, it will have no bearing on what we do. We have a huge battle to fight as it is without getting embroiled in somebody else argument with the government.

We are just slightly envious as they can strike and we cannot.

They do in fairness have huge pension contributions and are using what tools they have to protect that, we in the RAF have just been shafted royally and there is jack all we can do about it.

Good luck Fireservice and hope you get what you want.

 

[raflad67]

...oh and thanks for striking on the busiest day of the year and therefore putting lives at risk.

DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[grumpyoldb]

...oh and thanks for striking on the busiest day of the year and therefore putting lives at risk.

DT_Xtremez_25:

They don't need thanks, just the headlines......................!
"This is what we have been forced to do!"

 

[RAF Bird]

Yes, its legal. It was legislation introduced in 1992 and has been used before, though its never been used on this scale before.
If it goes ahead, lets hope it doesn't, the employer does leave himself open to claims of unfair dismissal. The members who've shown most resistance to this are women firefighters who'll struggle to get 12 hour childcare, 4 times a week and those living a distance away from London who'll see less of their young families. Something you are all to aware of in your jobs.

In that case then let the fire service employ someone who can work the hours. I did have a small amount of sympathy till I read this tosh.

Me = single parent & works shifts. Days I drop my boy off with my mum at 06.30 and she takes him to school for me then either her of my friend picks him up. Nights I drop my boy with my mum at 18.30 he sleeps at hers I finish work approx 0300 home in bed at 0400 till 0545 get up to collect boy. Take him home breakfast bath and ready for school. Back from school run at 0900 back to bed till 1400 get up to collect boy. Home feed, time together then back to my mums he goes. Sympathy is somewhere in the dictionary and that's where I go for it when I want it. I chose my job so I get on with it as I know there are people queueing out the doors at the AFCOs who'd happily work my shifts and take my pay. What about the mums in the RAF/RN/Army who go off and leave their families for 4 months? Or the Dads who do? I bet some of them would love the small problem of 12 hour childcare!

At the end of the day everyone is feeling the pain at the minute and your guys would be better off putting their energy into appreciating what they have and what they haven't lost when there are thousands out there who have lost... jobs, home, etc etc.

 

[KingGuin]

At the end of the day everyone is feeling the pain at the minute and your guys would be better off putting their energy into appreciating what they have and what they haven't lost when there are thousands out there who have lost... jobs, home, etc etc.

Good rant burd. Perhaps FS should advise his female (and male) colleagues that difficulties meeting working hours due to child care issues are addressed within Flexible Working Arrangements (Childcare) Act and the Equality at Work Act 2010.

I'll say it again. Everyone appreciates what the Fire Service do, but if you hope to receive any support or sympathy loose the emotive claptrap and say it how it is.

 

[metimmee]

In that case then let the fire service employ someone who can work the hours. I did have a small amount of sympathy till I read this tosh.

Me = single parent & works shifts. Days I drop my boy off with my mum at 06.30 and she takes him to school for me then either her of my friend picks him up. Nights I drop my boy with my mum at 18.30 he sleeps at hers I finish work approx 0300 home in bed at 0400 till 0545 get up to collect boy. Take him home breakfast bath and ready for school. Back from school run at 0900 back to bed till 1400 get up to collect boy. Home feed, time together then back to my mums he goes. Sympathy is somewhere in the dictionary and that's where I go for it when I want it. I chose my job so I get on with it as I know there are people queueing out the doors at the AFCOs who'd happily work my shifts and take my pay. What about the mums in the RAF/RN/Army who go off and leave their families for 4 months? Or the Dads who do? I bet some of them would love the small problem of 12 hour childcare!

At the end of the day everyone is feeling the pain at the minute and your guys would be better off putting their energy into appreciating what they have and what they haven't lost when there are thousands out there who have lost... jobs, home, etc etc.

Youre lucky to be able to use grandparents, many people dont have that option. You are able to cope with your situation because of the luxury of a flexible family member. Could you manage without that luxury?

Imagine you have your childcare arrangements squared away and then your employer changes your terms...generous though they may be. I am sure you'd have more than a grumble if it amounted to constructive dismissal if you were unable to satisfy childcare arrangements against the new terms.

 

[firestorm]

FS
as a matter of interest:

Was there a properly constitued ballot?
Did the TBU give the FB requisite notice of ballot?
Do you consider picketing Contingency stations to be secondary?

As an aside if the FB are offering "suitable alternative employment" (regardless that its the same job with changed T&C) then, legislatively they can make you redundant without recourse if you do not accept that offer.

Time for ACAS methinks.

The ballot was constituted and proprly run by an independant scruutineer.http://popularis.org/
Picketing the contingency stations isn't classed as secondary picketing as they are using fire stations, our contracts state that we work from any London fire station.

 

[firestorm]

FS
as a matter of interest:

Was there a properly constitued ballot?
Did the TBU give the FB requisite notice of ballot?
Do you consider picketing Contingency stations to be secondary?

As an aside if the FB are offering "suitable alternative employment" (regardless that its the same job with changed T&C) then, legislatively they can make you redundant without recourse if you do not accept that offer.

Time for ACAS methinks.

The ballot was constituted and proprly run by an independant scruutineer.http://popularis.org/
Picketing the contingency stations isn't classed as secondary picketing as they are using fire stations, our contracts state that we work from any London fire station.

Surely there's the flip side of that, with the night shift being reduced from 15 to 12 hours to balance the shift lengths, then those same women firefighters will see more of their children during those times and need less childcare?

Regrettably, I don't hold out much sympathy with the firefighters on the change of shift lengths. There are numerous places in the RAF that have 12 hour shifts as the norm when they do days and/or nights and no doubt it's the same in other jobs.

The firefighter on Radio 2 earlier didn't sell the reason not to equalise the shift lengths when he started whining on about an extra 3 hours on days where he'd see less of his family (forgetting to mention that he'd do 3 hours less on nights where he'd see more of his family) and working Christmas and Bank Holidays (this year I'm covering the 3rd Christmas Day in 5 years). Sorry firefighters, but your not alone in that and those that already work equalised shifts and on units that have 24/7 manning get on with it.

SWMBO currenty works with Warwickshire Fire and Rescue and, having come from other industries, is amazed at the inefficiencies across the fire service.

In the current climate, with many people having their jobs under threat, taking pay cuts and pay freezes, the firefighters aren't going to get the same support from the public they may have done in the past. Perhaps it's time for them to accept the changes?

The issue is that its very difficult to get 12 hour childcare, thats the minimum length of the shift.

 

[firestorm]

Not at all - when we e.g sign on apply for a posting etc our T&C change. These are not redundancies per se; the terminology is misleading. What we have here is a minor change to the T&C of a job. The job will still exist after the changes, whether members of the FBU chose to accept those changes is another thing. I'm sure if I'm wide of the mark, FS will put me right.

This is a new contract, enforced with other strings attached. You were right earlier. First in last out.

 

[firestorm]

Actually sacked or deemed to have packed the job in because you don't want to work under the new contracts?



As above are you being sacked or have you been offered a new contract you don't like and don't want to sign?



Seems your not being sacked then. Rather the employers are doing something the union think is immoral and perhaps even dodgy. But given the employers legal boys will almost certainly have looked closely at the small print it probably is legal and the unions simply don't like it.



Really or is it a management attempt to moderise the service and remove long established "spanish practices" that continue to allow some fire and rescue staff enough time off to run a second job if they wish to, whilst catching up on sleep during their primary job. Mention was made this morning of the American Air Traffic situation during the Regan presidency. where they refused a new contract and he called their bluff removed the lot and employed others who would do the work. One mans modernisation is another's erosion of terms and conditions it depends, I suppose, from which side you look at the problem.

They are terminating our contracts. Thats being sacked. Don't fall for the tired old press mantra of "spanish practices".
In the last 7 years we've changed our shifts, the way overtime is calculated (to our detriment) we've removed our rank structure and replaced it with a role based one, we've changed our pensions, its nigh on impossible to get an ill health pension now, we're being forced to change them again. We've replaced our discipline codes and replaced them with acas ones, we've removed long service pay and replaced it with CPD payments, they're worse, not eveyone can get that payment and its linked to a host of other things. We've reduced our sickness levels, the reward for this was the removal of further personel. We've taken on the extra responsibilities that the "New Dimension" project brought. Thats the mass decontamination of the public at terrorist incidents, we do detection, identification and monitoring at the same incident, to see what chemicals we're dealing with. We deploy nationally with high volume pumps to major flooding, we do urban search and rescue, the kind of thing you see at earthquakes, we deploy internationally with this role. "Perks" such as having a cook on station have been removed, soon the kitchen on stations will be removed. Many shifts have also changed, the latest lunatic idea is the LLAR shift, thats 96 hours straight through. My own training centre in C.London removed the canteen completely, it was replaced by vending machines, if you don't like the junk in the machines then go shop locally or bring your own lunch in. Fares and subsistance have been ammended in favour of the employer. You will be out of pocket for every course you go on now. We now do pre-arranged overtime, we were reluctant to do this because we were afraid they would reduce recruitment, using us to cover the shortfall, they said they wouldn't. They did.
If we have continued with these so called "spanish practices" then why have the chief officers and local politicians recieved such hugh rises in their pay and conditions for delivering them?

 

[firestorm]

Actually sacked or deemed to have packed the job in because you don't want to work under the new contracts?



As above are you being sacked or have you been offered a new contract you don't like and don't want to sign?



Seems your not being sacked then. Rather the employers are doing something the union think is immoral and perhaps even dodgy. But given the employers legal boys will almost certainly have looked closely at the small print it probably is legal and the unions simply don't like it.



Really or is it a management attempt to moderise the service and remove long established "spanish practices" that continue to allow some fire and rescue staff enough time off to run a second job if they wish to, whilst catching up on sleep during their primary job. Mention was made this morning of the American Air Traffic situation during the Regan presidency. where they refused a new contract and he called their bluff removed the lot and employed others who would do the work. One mans modernisation is another's erosion of terms and conditions it depends, I suppose, from which side you look at the problem.

Can't wait to see Trotsky's reply. Apparently he's having a kip - must be his 2nd job that is wearing him out,

Trotsky? :S I was knackered after my 2nd night shift. I'd had 3 hours sleep in the last 2 days. I don't have a second job.

 

[firestorm]

Well what I have read recently is the Military will not be covering for the Fire Service on any future Strikes, im sure some deal was done the last tinme to bring in some other people.

I dont know who but somebody posted it not so long ago. So let them Strike, it will have no bearing on what we do. We have a huge battle to fight as it is without getting embroiled in somebody else argument with the government.

We are just slightly envious as they can strike and we cannot.

They do in fairness have huge pension contributions and are using what tools they have to protect that, we in the RAF have just been shafted royally and there is jack all we can do about it.

Good luck Fireservice and hope you get what you want.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

The London Fire brigade have paid assetco £12m to provide cover.

 

[firestorm]

In that case then let the fire service employ someone who can work the hours. I did have a small amount of sympathy till I read this tosh.

Me = single parent & works shifts. Days I drop my boy off with my mum at 06.30 and she takes him to school for me then either her of my friend picks him up. Nights I drop my boy with my mum at 18.30 he sleeps at hers I finish work approx 0300 home in bed at 0400 till 0545 get up to collect boy. Take him home breakfast bath and ready for school. Back from school run at 0900 back to bed till 1400 get up to collect boy. Home feed, time together then back to my mums he goes. Sympathy is somewhere in the dictionary and that's where I go for it when I want it. I chose my job so I get on with it as I know there are people queueing out the doors at the AFCOs who'd happily work my shifts and take my pay. What about the mums in the RAF/RN/Army who go off and leave their families for 4 months? Or the Dads who do? I bet some of them would love the small problem of 12 hour childcare!

Would you feel the same if your shift changed to a worse one? One that makes it even more difficult to care for your child, without the luxury of family support.
I'm not really after your sympathy either. What I'm also not interested in is some kind of "race to the bottom" for the worst conditions we can get.

 

[Aces and Eights]

Trotsky? :S I was knackered after my 2nd night shift. I'd had 3 hours sleep in the last 2 days. I don't have a second job.

Just pulling your leg.
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NEVADA DISPENSARY

 

[252]

They are terminating our contracts. Thats being sacked. Don't fall for the tired old press mantra of "spanish practices".
In the last 7 years we've changed our shifts, the way overtime is calculated (to our detriment) we've removed our rank structure and replaced it with a role based one, we've changed our pensions, its nigh on impossible to get an ill health pension now, we're being forced to change them again. We've replaced our discipline codes and replaced them with acas ones, we've removed long service pay and replaced it with CPD payments, they're worse, not eveyone can get that payment and its linked to a host of other things. We've reduced our sickness levels, the reward for this was the removal of further personel. We've taken on the extra responsibilities that the "New Dimension" project brought. Thats the mass decontamination of the public at terrorist incidents, we do detection, identification and monitoring at the same incident, to see what chemicals we're dealing with. We deploy nationally with high volume pumps to major flooding, we do urban search and rescue, the kind of thing you see at earthquakes, we deploy internationally with this role. "Perks" such as having a cook on station have been removed, soon the kitchen on stations will be removed. Many shifts have also changed, the latest lunatic idea is the LLAR shift, thats 96 hours straight through. My own training centre in C.London removed the canteen completely, it was replaced by vending machines, if you don't like the junk in the machines then go shop locally or bring your own lunch in. Fares and subsistance have been ammended in favour of the employer. You will be out of pocket for every course you go on now. We now do pre-arranged overtime, we were reluctant to do this because we were afraid they would reduce recruitment, using us to cover the shortfall, they said they wouldn't. They did.
If we have continued with these so called "spanish practices" then why have the chief officers and local politicians recieved such hugh rises in their pay and conditions for delivering them?

As i stated in my earlier post i felt that there would be plenty of scope to achieve the sort of changes you mention above,even your new proposed shift patterns within your existing contracts,with the possile exeption of those on contracts signed 20 years ago.............so what in your opinion do the management hope to achieve by this termination/re employment strategy

 

[firestorm]

If they re-engage us on new contracts that serves their purpose in several ways. They can cherry pick who returns, the new contracts will have clauses that don't need negotiating, ie, much less favourable conditions and the new contracts enshrine 12 hour shifts that "futureproof reductions in night cover" managements quote, not mine.

 

[252]

If they re-engage us on new contracts that serves their purpose in several ways. They can cherry pick who returns, the new contracts will have clauses that don't need negotiating, ie, much less ffavourable conditions and the new contracts enshrine 12 hour shifts that "futureproof reductions in night cover" managements quote, not mine.

Well the laws the law and often has little to do with right and wrong........guess its down to if they are acting legaly or not...and if they are as i stated earlier this could have huge implications for others such as the NHS,local goverment etc

 

[firestorm]

Oh its legal. The only worry the employers have is that they leave themselves open to cases of unfair and constructive dismissal.
This dispute has ramifications for anyone with a contract employed in the public sector.

 

[252]

Oh its legal. The only worry the employers have is that they leave themselves open to cases of unfair and constructive dismissal.
This dispute has ramifications for anyone with a contract employed in the public sector.

ie those who lift thier heads to far above the parapit during this dispute,will be the ones not offered re employment!!,they probably have a war chest set aside for this and my consider the cost of a few dozen/hundred unfair dissmisals worth it to get rid off those they see as militant!!DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[KingGuin]

The ballot was constituted and proprly run by an independant scruutineer.http://popularis.org/
Picketing the contingency stations isn't classed as secondary picketing as they are using fire stations, our contracts state that we work from any London fire station.

Ta for clearing that up. I guess I was, and remain, curious because the FBU instruction states personnel are not to picket "their own station". Technically not secondary picketing but absolutely morally it is.

I support your right to strike but why not do it at your place of work?