Future of TG17

[True Blue Jack]

Surely, that would mean taking more jobs on. With the current structure, we are experiencing difficulty in fulfilling all our current commitments with the resources that we have.

Too quick! You replied before I had finished my post!

 

[ForgottenName]

Too quick! You replied before I had finished my post!

Haha. Me thinks you edited your post. On a serious note, as a Trade, we have got to get the balance right. I personnally don't think that the log jam that we have currently got at Sgt rank is right.

 

[ForgottenName]

TBJ Getting promoted to sgt in the next few years is going to be as tough as getting promoted to FS has been historically. Downgrading more posts is not going to help matters. On a Sqn, the adjt has to be taken seriously by both the techie Trade Managers and the winged master race. A newly promoted cpl is not going to get that. Similarly in NATO Units a cpl (OR-4) will find himself outranked by far less qualified and able compatriots from other nations; already NATO postings are frustrating for any career-minded individual. Downgrade some of our posts by 2 more NATO grades will only exacerbate matters.

Have just taken the time to reread some of the earlier posts and have extracted the above from one of yours. I believe that everything that you had said above is true, that is why the Trade Sponsor (I believe that it is his job) is going to have a very hard time working through this process. Never mind NATO posts, of which I have done a number, working with the Army also poses problems. They always seem to outrank the RAF in admin posts but, again, I understand why and it is not just because they want to have the edge on the RAF.

However, having spoken to a number of Chf Clks recently, I don't think anyone of them would turn down an extra SAC or two.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Haha. Me thinks you edited your post. On a serious note, as a Trade, we have got to get the balance right. I personnally don't think that the log jam that we have currently got at Sgt rank is right.

Off Topic One of those things. I submitted my post, re-read it, decided to make some changes at the same time as you replied to the original. Such is life!


The log jam at sgt is tough and we all know of good clerks who have fallen off the conveyor belt just because there were too few vacancies to promote them into once they became competitive. I fail to see how suddenly and radically reducing the establishment at sgt level and increasing at SAC level will address this issue. The full benefits will not be seen until kids joining now are competing for promotion to FS, by which time something else will have changed (WW3, the dissolution of the RAF, world peace, who knows).

Somebody once likened the RAF to a super-tanker. It is possible to change its direction, but you have to do it gradually. Handbrake turns risk capsizing the whole kitten-caboodle.

 

[ForgottenName]

Off Topic One of those things. I submitted my post, re-read it, decided to make some changes at the same time as you replied to the original. Such is life!


The log jam at sgt is tough and we all know of good clerks who have fallen off the conveyor belt just because there were too few vacancies to promote them into once they became competitive. I fail to see how suddenly and radically reducing the establishment at sgt level and increasing at SAC level will address this issue. The full benefits will not be seen until kids joining now are competing for promotion to FS, by which time something else will have changed (WW3, the dissolution of the RAF, world peace, who knows).

Somebody once likened the RAF to a super-tanker. It is possible to change its direction, but you have to do it gradually. Handbrake turns risk capsizing the whole kitten-caboodle.

I don't beleive that anything is going to happen suddenly and radically. The Trade Sponsor stated at the APC that the whole process is going to take at least 7 - 10 years if not longer. I know that you cannot suddenly open the gates and get about 200 more ACs through the training factory, it just does not happen that way. Therefore, if you can't get the people through the training door, then you can't release the people you already have (and there is no more money for redundancies anyway).

RAF = supertanker. You must have been listening in on a TMT course then!

 

[tommo9999]

Never mind NATO posts, of which I have done a number, working with the Army also poses problems. They always seem to outrank the RAF in admin posts but, again, I understand why and it is not just because they want to have the edge on the RAF.

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

 

[True Blue Jack]

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

It's a double-edged sword isn't it? A smart pongo will rely on his RAF (and RN to be fair) subordinates, otherwise they play "count the bananas". At my last unit I worked for 3 successive WO2s. One of them was smart and listened to his blue colleagues. The other 2 took every ounce of cunning and lip-biting we had.

 

[Boarderlyne]

The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

Agreed to that one. But you need to have a Pongo that is willing to listen.

Off Topic Listening to all the talk about numbers, on TMT in 03, the then current trade sponsor said that we would need to have 2400 to maintain operational effectiveness at that time. Can't remember the review that was stated in but it did make me sit up and take note. But it is interesting to note that once Pongo Central drops below the 100K mark, then they are no longer an Army, they are officially a Defence Force. Off Topic

A lot of good ideas coming from all angles and currently trying to add to those, but can't come up with anything more radical than more empowerment lower down the chain. But as we are still below FMDL that has its own pitfalls.

 

[ForgottenName]

Originally Posted by tommo9999
The rank issue doesn't have to be a problem with the pongoes - Force of personality allied to rock solid knowledge makes them sit up and take notice. Granted it's not easy but it can work, and let's face it, jointery is here for the long haul, so lets make sure we (TG17) are considered invaluable.

From what I have seen and heard, the RAF and the Navy are streets ahead of Army HR. I understand that they are learning the lessons that we did, the hard way.

 

[tommo9999]

From what I have seen and heard, the RAF and the Navy are streets ahead of Army HR. I understand that they are learning the lessons that we did, the hard way.

The RAF/RN probably are ahead. The Army are tending towards the "try first, ask questions later" approach, but gradually they are realising that our first 12 months is a useful pool of knowledge. As I said above, it's a combination of personality, knowledge, and approach. The Army hate being told they were wrong.

 

[ForgottenName]

The RAF/RN probably are ahead. The Army are tending towards the "try first, ask questions later" approach, but gradually they are realising that our first 12 months is a useful pool of knowledge. As I said above, it's a combination of personality, knowledge, and approach. The Army hate being told they were wrong.[/quote]

As would we if the position had been reversed!

 

[tommo9999]

Difficult to speculate on what might have been. But I'd like to think we would have taken more notice of any advice a sister Service might have been able to provide.

 

[ForgottenName]

Difficult to speculate on what might have been. But I'd like to think we would have taken more notice of any advice a sister Service might have been able to provide.

It should be noted that we look on the Army as one organisation; however, it is not. You will find that different clerks in different part of the Army will get different advice/instructions depending on which Brigade they are in. However, I am told that where our Army colleagues are in an area that is RAF or RN led soldiers are, in the majority of places, looking at the RAF/RN for advice at the operator/working level.

 

[vinnyvx]

I like a lot of the posters on this thread think a number of TG17 posts are over ranked. I think there is scope to down rank a number of jobs, for instance PAs, Stn Cashiers and Cpls in AFCOs. We'll certainly need to engage in some down ranking if the trade structure is to become viable. The block at Sgt will need to go and addressing that particular issue will unfortunately generate some pain. However, its a problem thats been festering for too long.

I just wanted to correct the assumption some posters have that High Wycombe is awash with Registries and TG17 Clks. It isn't. There are three registries, the Int, Air Cmd and Stn Registry, the Int registry if I remember correctly employees 3 TG17. The Cmd and Stn Registry are entirely civilian staffed and have been since about 2003. Even then there are only a total of about 10 registry staff in the Cmd and Stn Registry, and the number is getting smaller every year. Virtually all document storage here is electronic, hence why Manning are moving to electronic dossiers.

 

[Humble Scribe]

Whilst I agree that many of our posts are over ranked, there is a legitimate argument that the RAF TG17 posts will be under valued when in a 'purple' or NATO environment. It may be that we consider authorising SPAR when JNCO's go on det to give them the credability they deserve in a tri-service environment but not very likely.

I agree with TBJ that we are chasing the perfect pyramid when the result means that we are out-ranked against Armry & RN personnel when employed jointly. Unfortunately we may have to accept this imbalance but perhaps the Sec Sponsor could use this argument to up range at Cpl level; can you imagine the techies bleating if a shiney is on the same pay level? Got to me worth a try just for that!! It may also aid the retention of SAC's if they think they'll get a mega pay rise on promotion.

Going back to the development of our SAC's, we need to empower the Chf Clk's to move them around on station and not solely rely on ACOS Manning. All Clks should be placed under his/her establishment to move around at their pleasure without XX Sqn Adj interference; only then can we achieve proper career management for our JR's.

 

[tommo9999]

Going back to the development of our SAC's, we need to empower the Chf Clk's to move them around on station and not solely rely on ACOS Manning. All Clks should be placed under his/her establishment to move around at their pleasure without XX Sqn Adj interference; only then can we achieve proper career management for our JR's.

Chf Clks should already be doing this. The best Chf Clks have done this for years; the worst have held onto their better staff to the detriment of other sections of the Unit. This is vital for the development of our JRs. I don't think TG17 will ever have the "perfect pyramid", particularly as we move more and more into Joint operations/Units. Is there such a beast?

 

[Humble Scribe]

Chf Clks should already be doing this. The best Chf Clks have done this for years; the worst have held onto their better staff to the detriment of other sections of the Unit. This is vital for the development of our JRs. I don't think TG17 will ever have the "perfect pyramid", particularly as we move more and more into Joint operations/Units. Is there such a beast?

Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.

God forbid, no! I've spent years trying to get out of PSF and when I finally get a Sqn job you want to give WO PSF the power to activate my bungee cord.

Actually, it is something our unit has been trying to achieve (seemingly without success) since JPA rollout. It makes sense on many levels. Unfortunately, it matches the "G1 Det" model used by the AGC, whereby all the clerks in a Regiment belong to the RAO and he moves them between HQ and the Companies as he sees fit. I can't be heard to say the Army have had a good idea, so we should abandon all such talk immediately. DT_Xtremez_06:

 

[KingGuin]

At my gaff I have "control" over all TG17 with the exception of the Sqn SNCOs and JNCOs. However the AC posts on those Sqns are on my establishment and I "lend" them to the Sqns on a semi-permanent basis. This serves to ensure communication is maintained between us and the Sqns and more importantly the Sqns themselves. Ideally I would like to have control of the SNCO/JNCO posts too but politics, as ever, prevent me. Now if I could only convince Sqn OCs as a SNCO TG17 I might actually have a clue what is best for the clerks................................

 

[Boarderlyne]

Sometimes the Chf Clk's hands are tied as personnel are posted on to the Wg's/Sqn's and not to the Stn as a whole for the Chf Clk to distribute. That's my point really, the CC needs carte blanche authority to move his clks as he/she sees fit.[/QUOTE}

Not the best idea IMHO. As TG17, we are usually serving in digital posts on Wgs/Sqns these days and how can we help the guys who need the most help if we are moved willy-nilly around the Sqns or the Stn? We need to identify with those that we are assisting and how can we do that if we know that in 18/12/6 months, we will be moved out of that Unit and into another and don't need to give a F***? The workers will do their damndest to help people as much as they can, but the blaggers will, as usual, get away with doing snot all and get the Prom recs as they can talk the talk and BS their way into getting the next rank up.

Unit Clks are a great way of learning what the RAF is all about, whether it be in 1 Sqn Rock Central or TCW. It aids us in empathising with the people that are deploying and knowing how much pain Joe/Joanna Bloggs is going through as he/she is posted within 2 weeks of returning from being OOA as rough examples. We also need to ensure that the kids straight out of training are properly supervised so that they know what is expected of them and they can aim towards the lofty heights of Sneck-dom.