PAYD Bringing ISS To Its Knees

[MrMasher]

AMP wants to know opinions on PAYD. He said so last week when he visited. We couldn't tell him much as we don't go onto it yet for a few months.
He is in the belief that it's a success. He obviously hasn't been told yet.

When he visits, tell him!!!!

 

[True Blue Jack]

Those businesses have two very different customer bases to operate with. Where as the commercial outlet draws in joe public, a CRL managed facility at a phase 1 training unit is expected to provide the trainees (who are on a physical and mentally demanding course) with their daily calorific needs. Where as one cadet might be ok with the meagre portions, what about the units amongst us who need to 'feed the machine' so to speak?

That question really interests me and is the reason it was decreed years ago that Phase 1 trainees would never go to PAYD. If that is no longer the case, that is a significant change in policy and I would be interested to know who made that decision and with what justification. I think I'll make some enquiries next week...

 

[Toffee-Scouser]

when I was last at a phase one establishment the recruits ate in a normal none PAYD mess, while the trainees ate in a different mess that was PAYD. All trainees agreed that it was better to be a recruit, with people who I know electing to go to the shop and buy sandwiches every day to live off (he still actually does this because I'm based with him now, thats how much he hates PAYD)

 

[needsabiggerfuse]

So how long can this state of affairs continue? The operators will have had up-front costs, e.g. setting up the facility, fixed costs, e.g. staff wages, rental of property, etc. and variable costs, e.g. the quality and quantity of 'raw' foodstuffs, fuel used, etc. They will have calculated a footfall of a certain amount, and an income '£' spend per person. Sooner or later, it is predicted that they arrive at a point where income and expenditure match, the so-called 'break even point', and profits are then made. Obviously the sooner the BEP is reached, the happier the management and shareholders are. From what I am seeing, it seems unlikely that this point will be reached any time soon, i.e. expenditure will exceed income. In cases like this the model is then declared unsustainable, and the business collapses, or the operater pulls out before they go bankrupt.

Solution. Cut costs.

Wages of employees - difficult, 'cos they are probably not well paid anyway, and they'll find alternative employment.
Quality of meals - easy to do, but has a kick back in that footfall/£ spend decreases, and the BEP recedes even further.
Portion size - see above.

Or increase footfall. What would attract greater numbers through the door. How to do this is the real problem.

 

[XVR RA RA RA]

To compare it to commercial outlets is a bit naff to be honest

Do you mean PAYD is naff compared to commercial outlets? From my experience PAYD can't compete with buying your own food from Tesco for value. Or compete with the like of Subway or a takeaway in the village for quality.

 

[busby1971]

Do you mean PAYD is naff compared to commercial outlets? From my experience PAYD can't compete with buying your own food from Tesco for value. Or compete with the like of Subway or a takeaway in the village for quality.

No they cannot, but PAYD is more about your eating in your home rather than having a treat every now and then which management and some on here seem to have forgotten.

If PAYD has been allowed to become an expensive choice (for something other than gruel) then there should be an alternative provision provided to allow for home style food to be eaten, kitchens in the super blocks, sorry showing my age SLAM blocks.

 

[dozyscopie1]

I mentioned to the Station Commander on my unit about getting the kitchens fitted out so we could cook our own food (new surfaces, extra plugs etc) and he said that he was under no obligation to fit out the kitchens and that he would rather there was no cooking appliances at all in the blocks and that he wanted everyone to eat in the mess and enjoy the delights that is PAYD.
It also surprises me at the varying quality of food between camps. In my Junior Ranks Mess the food can at times be awful, most of the time its just edible(can somebody please show them how to cook veg!!!). I am over at Northolt this week for this Olympics b*ll*cks and the food is very good. RAF chefs on the servery and in the kitchen. Plus I am eating for free due to it being field conditions or something so I am even happier. Decent food for nearly two weeks and a few extra quid in sky rocketDT_Xtremez_30:

 

[mememe]

AMP wants to know opinions on PAYD. He said so last week when he visited. We couldn't tell him much as we don't go onto it yet for a few months.
He is in the belief that it's a success. He obviously hasn't been told yet.

When he visits, tell him!!!!

Couldn't agree more. I have said before that personnel have failed to attend the feedback meetings with CO present so it comes down to whinging if they don't.
My concern with the "tell him" bit is (I agree with you) that who is going to break cover when their CO's are blowing smoke up the arse of the AMP telling them what a success it is? I can see it now, Cpl bloggs told me it was **** Mr CO. Cpl Bloggs can expect a less than successful career at that unit from that day on... Let's face it, it does happen.

 

[Realist78]

I mentioned to the Station Commander on my unit about getting the kitchens fitted out so we could cook our own food (new surfaces, extra plugs etc) and he said that he was under no obligation to fit out the kitchens and that he would rather there was no cooking appliances at all in the blocks and that he wanted everyone to eat in the mess and enjoy the delights that is PAYD.
It also surprises me at the varying quality of food between camps. In my Junior Ranks Mess the food can at times be awful, most of the time its just edible(can somebody please show them how to cook veg!!!). I am over at Northolt this week for this Olympics b*ll*cks and the food is very good. RAF chefs on the servery and in the kitchen. Plus I am eating for free due to it being field conditions or something so I am even happier. Decent food for nearly two weeks and a few extra quid in sky rocketDT_Xtremez_30:

Therein lies the problem IMO. He (and others in his position) is spouting the party line and doesn't have to endure the poor quality of so called food himself.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Cpl bloggs told me it was **** Mr CO. Cpl Bloggs can expect a less than successful career at that unit from that day on... Let's face it, it does happen.

On the other hand, Cpl Bloggs might expect a more successful career at that unit due to having the moral courage to say what needs to be said. That also happens.

 

[chiprafp]

On the other hand, Cpl Bloggs might expect a more successful career at that unit due to having the moral courage to say what needs to be said. That also happens.

In the alternate reality created by your time in crantanamo maybe but not in the real Air Force!

 

[True Blue Jack]

In the alternate reality created by your time in crantanamo maybe but not in the real Air Force!

AOC's at Waddo last year and we made time in the programme for a dozen JRs to have coffee with the big man. They were briefed not to pull any punches as long as they could back up what they said, they all stepped up to the plate and it did none of them any harm come SJAR time.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy amount of cynicism but if people genuinely believe they cannot take their legitimate complaints to the highest level when they have the opportunity then they have to expect those complaints to be written off as whinging.

Lectures on the 'Real Air Force' from deepest, darkest Ramstein. Now that's funny!

 

[TARDE85]

Where did it all go wrong?

Where did it all go wrong?

What a sad, sad state of affairs. When I was in the mob I was lucky enough to be posted to a couple of stations which always did well in the annual JR mess competition.

Brawdy from '86 to '90 and Kinloss from '92 to '99. Even Aldergrove from '90 to '92 produced food of a more than acceptable standard (and officially field conditions as well, so no charge).

The more I read on this forum the less and less I recognise of the RAF I was a member of from '84 to '99.

Tomorrow is the 13th anniversary of my discharge, and I have never regretted leaving. If I had stayed in I would have made Chief by now, possibly Flt Sgt. I really wouldn't want to deal with the morale problems that seem to be so endemic these days.

 

[chiprafp]

Lectures on the 'Real Air Force' from deepest, darkest Ramstein. Now that's funny![/COLOR]

Not surprisingly I have been elsewhere in my time and as you were nearly a SNCO once you should know that. You may remember the Real Air Force from back then.

 

[woollymouse]

Having spoken to a few service chefs (who have to work for ISS) at a PAYD unit, they are just as disappointed with the slop they have to serve. At least under Non PAYD system they occasionally could try and do something different now they have to toe the line and make what's on the list for the week. Not the sort of thing many of them joined up for.

SOmeone needs to admit the scheme has failed and start again.

 

[gray]

Having spoken to a few service chefs (who have to work for ISS) at a PAYD unit, they are just as disappointed with the slop they have to serve. At least under Non PAYD system they occasionally could try and do something different now they have to toe the line and make what's on the list for the week. Not the sort of thing many of them joined up for.

SOmeone needs to admit the scheme has failed and start again.

And they have to follow the recipes given to them too. Speaking to one of our chefs, Lemon Sauce for example is made up of nothing they'de think/like to put in it - all artificial packet stuff.

G.

 

[True Blue Jack]

SOmeone needs to admit the scheme has failed and start again.

It depends on your defnition of failure unfortunately.

Has PAYD failed to provide the 'customers' with the system they wanted? Simply, yes.
Has PAYD failed to "give [customers] previously undreamt of levels of choice and encourage individual responsibility" (from the Defence Management Journal)? No, even the harshest critic of PAYD has to admit that.

Ultimately, PAYD will only fail if one of 2 things happen:

1. Everybody boycotts all of the on-base outlets, i.e., messes, coffee shops, Spar shops, butty wagons and ISS-supplied tea bars.
2. Livers-in become ill due to malnutrition.

I just don't think either of these outcomes are likely.

 

[Realist78]

It depends on your defnition of failure unfortunately.

Has PAYD failed to provide the 'customers' with the system they wanted? Simply, yes.
Has PAYD failed to "give [customers] previously undreamt of levels of choice and encourage individual responsibility" (from the Defence Management Journal)? No, even the harshest critic of PAYD has to admit that.

Ultimately, PAYD will only fail if one of 2 things happen:

1. Everybody boycotts all of the on-base outlets, i.e., messes, coffee shops, Spar shops, butty wagons and ISS-supplied tea bars.
2. Livers-in become ill due to malnutrition.

I just don't think either of these outcomes are likely.

Was that tongue in cheek? It would be interesting to compare the standard of food in the Officer's Mess at a station where the total feck up that is PAYD exists because you and your brethren would not put up with the standard that the ORs have to.

 

[Max]

It depends on your defnition of failure unfortunately.

Has PAYD failed to provide the 'customers' with the system they wanted? Simply, yes.
Has PAYD failed to "give [customers] previously undreamt of levels of choice and encourage individual responsibility" (from the Defence Management Journal)? No, even the harshest critic of PAYD has to admit that.

.

I beg to differ, the choices have reduced and encourage individual responsibility? Probably but are all those who have left home for the first time capable of looking after themselves properly? Some yes but not all. PAYD is not necessarily a bad idea but it has been very poorly executed.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Was that tongue in cheek? It would be interesting to compare the standard of food in the Officer's Mess at a station where the total feck up that is PAYD exists because you and your brethren would not put up with the standard that the ORs have to.

I said nothing about the standard of food, which has decreased across the board and I would happily host you for lunch one day so that you can see for yourself. However, let me explain my point better about the increase in choice. Prior to PAYD livers-in had to eat in the mess or accept that they were paying for food they weren't eating. Now, they can eat from the core menu, the retail menu, or make other arrangements. It's not a great choice but it is a choice and in that respect PAYD can be described as successful by the criteria applied - quality of food simply does not come into the equation. It should but it doesn't and if we try to introduce it now ISS will simply say that they can easily improve the food quality but it would come at a cost. Had food quality been specified from the beginning then no company would have ever bid for the contract.

Years ago when I lived in I argued that PAYD would be a bad idea; the simple fact that I was paying for 21 meals each week and normally eating only 10 of those was offset by the fact that the messes used the surplus income to provide better meals, theme nights, Christmas dinners, etc. I still think PAYD is a bad idea but it is here and it will stay unless something drastic such as I described earlier happens (which I don't consider to be likely).