Welcome to E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network
Join our free community to unlock a range of benefits like:
  • Post and participate in discussions.
  • Send and receive private messages with other members.
  • Respond to polls and surveys.
  • Upload and share content.
  • Gain access to exclusive features and tools.
Join 7.5K others today

Retention.....

Trending This Week
View More Trending
Sospan said:
We are all entitled to our own opinion, mine will be disliked by many! I think we have far too many dinosaurs amongsed the senior ranks, the Air Force is now unrecognisable compared to the 80's and whilst some have moved with the times many are stuck in the days of Germany and putties! We need to move on and not dwell on how it used to be, we have lost most of our perks and posting but its gone and it wont be changing back. Now I await the incoming!!!!
Click to expand...

Who's a stressed out puppy? Just because some of us have been there done that as you say, does not mean we are not in touch with what is going on today. Yes the good old days are gone as I see it, but the good old days were also gone when I joined in 1985. The thing is mate, I learned many a valuable lesson from my SNCOs back then & if you stopped blaming the SNCOs for your shortcomings then you might be one!
Everyone has a voice, from LAC to AVM, I have seen them sitting pis#ed on the bar room floor in Bosnia, each has a point to give & each is as valuable to the Air Force as the other.
"A wheel is no good without spokes"
 
Mickwreay said:
Who's a stressed out puppy? Just because some of us have been there done that as you say, does not mean we are not in touch with what is going on today. Yes the good old days are gone as I see it, but the good old days were also gone when I joined in 1985. The thing is mate, I learned many a valuable lesson from my SNCOs back then & if you stopped blaming the SNCOs for your shortcomings then you might be one!
Everyone has a voice, from LAC to AVM, I have seen them sitting pis#ed on the bar room floor in Bosnia, each has a point to give & each is as valuable to the Air Force as the other.
"A wheel is no good without spokes"
Click to expand...

I didn't tarnish everybody with the same brush there are certainly people who have evolved with the service, and neither did I blame SNCO's its the system to blame. Just my view be it right or wrong.
 
Sospan said:
We are all entitled to our own opinion, mine will be disliked by many! I think we have far too many dinosaurs amongsed the senior ranks, the Air Force is now unrecognisable compared to the 80's and whilst some have moved with the times many are stuck in the days of Germany and putties! We need to move on and not dwell on how it used to be, we have lost most of our perks and posting but its gone and it wont be changing back. Now I await the incoming!!!!
Click to expand...

There is a good element of truth in that Sospan. Can I just ask though, what is your view on tradesmen who have been 'multi-skilled' but still insist that they are 'riggers' or 'sooties' or whatever until their dying breath. IMHO that is not at all helpful, especially when all new aircraft technicians are multi-skilled from the start.
 
propersplitbrainme said:
There is a good element of truth in that Sospan. Can I just ask though, what is your view on tradesmen who have been 'multi-skilled' but still insist that they are 'riggers' or 'sooties' or whatever until their dying breath. IMHO that is not at all helpful, especially when all new aircraft technicians are multi-skilled from the start.
Click to expand...

I am still in the single trade environment so not really qualified on what people call their legacy trade. But personally I think multi-skilling is not good, it has been proven to work in civvy street and in-service on Typhoon and on a few other platforms but generally our skill fade has taken enough of a battering to be spread further across two very large and comprehensive trades, we Rolls Royce our aircraft far more than civvy street therefore I think we need a greater amount of specific trade knowledge. There will be others that say spannering is spannering but not me. A 2 week course to become a sootie is an insult to them.
 
I am foretunate enough to be in a position that I really enjoy - I put in for it and was lucky enough to get it. I was very close to promotion last year (before the pause in trade group 1 promo's), but have gone down the list this year and fallen far enough off the plot to now consider jumping. My current position is the only real reason I haven't pulled the handle yet.

If the rumours about people getting promotions and/or postings of choice turn out to be true - just because they PVR'd - then there will be hell to pay. JPA will collapse under the strain of people logging on to escape. Not sure what else can be done - as ACOS are awarding those wishing to leave.

Rant over.
 
Sospan said:
I am still in the single trade environment so not really qualified on what people call their legacy trade. But personally I think multi-skilling is not good, it has been proven to work in civvy street and in-service on Typhoon and on a few other platforms but generally our skill fade has taken enough of a battering to be spread further across two very large and comprehensive trades, we Rolls Royce our aircraft far more than civvy street therefore I think we need a greater amount of specific trade knowledge. There will be others that say spannering is spannering but not me. A 2 week course to become a sootie is an insult to them.
Click to expand...

Well Ok, but now I'm going to set myself up to be shot down here. I was once of the same view as you, i.e. that a short multi-skill course is an insult to those who took the full fitters course in their past, but I've now had a change of view and believe that multi-skilling is the best way to make use of scarce manpower resources. I don't also believe a civvy multi-skilled licence holder has any less in-depth knowledge than his single-skilled RAF counterpart; I'd suggest they actually have more due to the requirements of the CAA system.
The difference in the skillsets between airframe and propulsion is actually, IMHO, quite small and the mystique that individuals in each trade believe exists in the other actually isn't there at all. When a 'sootie' gets posted on to Hercs having been on say, VC10s or Harriers, IME its like being posted to a different world. A new platform to learn including a propeller which most won't even have been taught in basic training. At yet they manage admirably having learned the systems, so do riggers who take up GE duties. Because thats all its about at the end of the day, learning new and different systems having been given a basic grounding in what each one does.
Anyone who genuinely thinks they can't work in the 'other' trade (as opposed to not wanting to or clinging to the safety blanket of other 'sooties/riggers) is selling themselves short.
I await incoming. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

PS: Apologies for appearing to turn this into another 'multi-skilling' thread, but I'm addressing Sospan's point about out of date views in the RAF.
 
Last edited:
propersplitbrainme said:
There is a good element of truth in that Sospan. Can I just ask though, what is your view on tradesmen who have been 'multi-skilled' but still insist that they are 'riggers' or 'sooties' or whatever until their dying breath. IMHO that is not at all helpful, especially when all new aircraft technicians are multi-skilled from the start.
Click to expand...

Thats a very good point. I feel they should have some "re-education" by their seniors. There's no room for slackers. If your multi skilled, get on with your job and do it.

My comments werent meant to be taken into the context of boot out the seniors and let the Cpl's rule.

It was highlighting the fact that promotion is rubbish and the only way at the moment it improves is when Sgts PVR.

So then, apparently, ACOS are thinking of paying them more money to stay in.
There are plenty of 15 year plus Cpls who do the job of Sgts so experience isnt an issue.

Alot of Cpls wont PVR because of the pension trap, whereas the majority of Sgts have more than likely done 22 years, so PVRing doesnt penalise them as much.

It shouldnt be down to ACOS to pay people off to stay in, it should be down to the individuals chain of command to ensure that they are doing the right thing.
 
Sospan said:
Its evolved from the fact SNCO retention has been highlighted by many people on here recently. There is a few short term solutions but none of them are ideal. You seem to resent the promotion of Cpls. (I have not been fishing for that)
Click to expand...

Nothing could be further from the truth, if you had said that there's a number of deadwood sgts holding cpls back, i would agree but saying deadwood SNCOs is too general.
 
Last edited:
Remember as well that a SNCO who stays on blocks promotion for 2 people, the SAC who would replace the Cpl doesn't move either. They recently asked a WO I know to stay on recently, that's 5 people now who's careers are put on hold due to 1 person being asked to stay past his time.
 
Joe_90 said:
Remember as well that a SNCO who stays on blocks promotion for 2 people, the SAC who would replace the Cpl doesn't move either. They recently asked a WO I know to stay on recently, that's 5 people now who's careers are put on hold due to 1 person being asked to stay past his time.
Click to expand...

Now that may be a problem but just because a SNCO serves for a longer term than those below him doesn't mean to say that he is blocking their promotion. Her/she is serving, just the same as anyone else. As for one person blocking the promotion of 5 below him, horsesh1t! He might not be making a vacancy for the guy 1 rank below him just as that guy is not making a vacancy for the guy 1 rank below him etc. Interesting to see in x years time whether or not you still hold those views when you're sat on top of the tree as it were.
 
Multi skilling

Multi skilling

propersplitbrainme said:
Well Ok, but now I'm going to set myself up to be shot down here. I was once of the same view as you, i.e. that a short multi-skill course is an insult to those who took the full fitters course in their past, but I've now had a change of view and believe that multi-skilling is the best way to make use of scarce manpower resources. I don't also believe a civvy multi-skilled licence holder has any less in-depth knowledge than his single-skilled RAF counterpart; I'd suggest they actually have more due to the requirements of the CAA system.
The difference in the skillsets between airframe and propulsion is actually, IMHO, quite small and the mystique that individuals in each trade believe exists in the other actually isn't there at all. When a 'sootie' gets posted on to Hercs having been on say, VC10s or Harriers, IME its like being posted to a different world. A new platform to learn including a propeller which most won't even have been taught in basic training. At yet they manage admirably having learned the systems, so do riggers who take up GE duties. Because thats all its about at the end of the day, learning new and different systems having been given a basic grounding in what each one does.
Anyone who genuinely thinks they can't work in the 'other' trade (as opposed to not wanting to or clinging to the safety blanket of other 'sooties/riggers) is selling themselves short.
I await incoming. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

PS: Apologies for appearing to turn this into another 'multi-skilling' thread, but I'm addressing Sospan's point about out of date views in the RAF.
Click to expand...


I agree mate, multi skilling is fully utilising your available manpower. We’ve all been there at late’O’clock when the riggers or sooties are going to trade cover, and god how it pi22es you off! I worked on Chinooks for many years in Bosnia etc. & we had fairies fitting bob(fuel) tanks with a little supervision due to lack of manpower, sooties fitting jammers all in the name of the Holy Grail an early stack!
Heavies & lights all think in their respective thought processes & a task is a task, like you said a Tonka is a world away from a Puma etc. We did only get the basics on multi skilling but if you think about it a bulk of your mechs/fitters course was general aircraft work, F700, APs etc. You only learned your job at 3a.m pi22ed wet through & covered in fuel & oil.
 
Mickwreay said:
I agree mate, multi skilling is fully utilising your available manpower. We’ve all been there at late’O’clock when the riggers or sooties are going to trade cover, and god how it pi22es you off! I worked on Chinooks for many years in Bosnia etc. & we had fairies fitting bob(fuel) tanks with a little supervision due to lack of manpower, sooties fitting jammers all in the name of the Holy Grail an early stack!
Heavies & lights all think in their respective thought processes & a task is a task, like you said a Tonka is a world away from a Puma etc. We did only get the basics on multi skilling but if you think about it a bulk of your mechs/fitters course was general aircraft work, F700, APs etc. You only learned your job at 3a.m pi22ed wet through & covered in fuel & oil.
Click to expand...

On Tonka it's generally the other way around, especially for riggers.
 
So they say we arent leaving in droves

So they say we arent leaving in droves

I know they keep saying that the ammount of people leaving the service hasnt changed and its TRUE!! But what they dont say is that as a percentage of overall manning its rising. According to the National Audit Office 1 in every 9 of the O/Rs will leave this year. The figures are all on line at this web site:http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp5/gennotes.html

It has all the data from the 3 services broken down into time served, PVR etc
 
Last edited:
Interesting stats. I love the way they've changed Premature Voluntary release to 'Voluntary Outflow'. Think I'll just 'VO' right now!
 
Where its all gone wrong

Where its all gone wrong

In 1999 there were 42000 O/Rs in the RAF and 10000 officers
In 2008 there are 32000 O/Rs in the RAF and 9000 officers.

That is why we are chronically short of workers they decided that 1 officer looking after 4 workers was too difficult so they paid off 10k workers and 1k officers so now they only have to look after 3. Enough said!!
 
I heard of an SAC who is now working for Bae got the "call" and got offered a posting in his area of choice and promotion to CPL to recind his PVR. It amazing what lengths they are going to, whats next cash back?
 
ady eflog said:
I heard of an SAC who is now working for Bae got the "call" and got offered a posting in his area of choice and promotion to CPL to recind his PVR. It amazing what lengths they are going to, whats next cash back?
Click to expand...

It's really quite sad, the airships must have no idea of the cash available to technicians outside the RAF.

I know money isn't everything in a job, but when they take away just about every perk, the only thing left IS the money!

Lets hope recruitment picks up, or that will be the end in a couple of years whene everybody has left.

Incidentally, out of 13 people on my resettlement brief, only 4 were time served Sgts/CTs, the rest were SACs and newly promoted Cpls.
 
Believe me, the airships are more aware of the issues affecting we mere mortals than we like to give them credit for and especially so of those issues peculiar to aircraft trades.

Recruitment is up and massively so. They are taking 150 people away from FL posts (where they are also desperately needed) in an attempt to boost recruitment still further. We can see from this thread some of the retention tools being employed in desperate attempts to get people to stay.

We may be chinstrapped now, but I think a lot will happen in the next 12 months that will lay the foundations for a better future. If we can only get the funding we need.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top