The RAF - No room for 'Guys'

[Talk Wrench]

If you identify as an It or a Thing who are they to discipline you?

Seems very dangerous that

I feel spurned and believe me, there's nothing worse than a spurned Thing.

 

[UlsterExile]

If the MOD are taking this seriously, the words "Sir" and "Ma'am" should also be not used as the person you are addressing may not identify as male/female.

Morning Mate it is then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See how that goes down

 

[Barch]

Is "an officer and gentleman with a skirt on" as a description for a female officer still frowned on ?

 

[busby1971]

So I'm guessing using the term "fudge packing, Marmite mining, uphill gardening, @rse bandit" is also no longer on the table.

I don’t think any of those are gender specific anymore, attachments can be bought from one of the many private establishments along the A1, so I’m told.

 

[norfolkred1]

It's going to be hard with regional dialects. Pet, doll, duck et al.

So the midwife says 'congratulations, you have a baby ' Yeah but what is it, 'well you tell me'

 

[Oldstacker]

The blood pressure is rising on this thread isn't it - you lot should all sign up to be in the Question Time audience.

Why? Do we sound like Corbynistas?

 

[ERT]

I believe "Airman" will be replaced with "Aviator".

 

[Talk Wrench]

Obviously never watched question time then.

By the way.. Corbyn is long gone.... yet he still lives deep in your brain for free.

Looking at this thread the Question Time Nuclear Nine should be the Nuclear Twenty if all of you lot were added in.

View attachment 1011735

Can we add the socialist hero Red Len to that list? He's redder than all of them put together.

 

[busby1971]

Do we have a list now?

 

[Rigga]

What if the assumption of "being better than you" through rank is questioned....?

 

[Talk Wrench]

Len McClusky is a dinosaur that just doesn't know when to go away... but strangely has the same views as the nuclear nine on Brexit.
Go figure.

Yeah, it must be confusing for the socialists amongst us.

 

[Talk Wrench]

What if the assumption of "being better than you" through rank is questioned....?

That will always be the case unless you completely throw away rank, the management titles and make every single person an equal worker, regardless of whether they're pushing a broom around the hangar or managing a 10 billion dollar fleet of aircraft.

 

[metimmee]

I have pronouns in my email sig, and I now have no problem with it at all.

Initially I had my reservations, but thanks to a very active work forum on the intranet, I am beginning to understand some of the issues that some collectively term as "woke". The first thing I learned was to shut up, suspend scepticism and listen. I then began to appreciate that I, as a middle-aged white guy, don't exist in the same world as some of these groups. Their life experiences are totally different from mine. Consequently, when issues are brought up that I would before pass off as nonsense are just that because I have no experience of such things, this is why we have to listen.

There was one person in particular who was quite provocative in their intranet forum posts about gender who I have learned a lot from. They are spectacularly talented in their field and they also put a lot of work into gender equality. They published a blog post on one of the popular internet military blogs and was cruelly abused on their opinions with serious gender and sexuality abuse. Much of it was moderated out but they took it very badly. Now, you could simply say they only said "insert abuse or micro-aggression here"...but add that to their life experience and it isn't so insignificant, especially as some of the abuse potentially came within their professional-orbit. We all have our limits and that experience hurt them deeply. Why is that ok?

Seemingly small changes can have a huge impact. My email sig is a very small outward manifestation of respect and support of folks across the gender spectrum...that may make someone feel seen. Why wouldn't I? It doesn't impact me, it doesn't make me less of a person but may make the recipient more comfortable in my presence, in a position of leadership this is important. Inclusive language, again, if it makes those around you more comfortable, why not?

When I interviewed to join the RAF, like many on this forum, I was asked what I thought about homosexuality etc. and what would I do if I became aware of a homosexual in the RAF....then, the rules changed and the organisation accepted homosexuals, much to its betterment. The organisation changed to better reflect the nation it serves. The world is constantly evolving and the military should keep up, as should all organisations. If you look at the modern military and compare and contrast to the past, it seems so alien that sort of behaviour was baked into the organisation. We're far more open about mental health issues, we are better at neuro-diversity. When I was a young-un it was weirdo's and misfits on the squadron rather than acceptance and understanding of neuro diversity.

When I read about some topics, it can make me feel uncomfortable and dismissive. On reflection, I think we all do that when our world-view is challenged. I have just learned to try and keep an open mind.

I don't always get it right, I am still learning My particular challenge is in situations of conflict and how to resolve situations where D&I has been weaponised, or, where groups clash...that's an ongoing challenge.

 

[muttywhitedog]

I have pronouns in my email sig, and I now have no problem with it at all.

Initially I had my reservations, but thanks to a very active work forum on the intranet, I am beginning to understand some of the issues that some collectively term as "woke". The first thing I learned was to shut up, suspend scepticism and listen. I then began to appreciate that I, as a middle-aged white guy, don't exist in the same world as some of these groups. Their life experiences are totally different from mine. Consequently, when issues are brought up that I would before pass off as nonsense are just that because I have no experience of such things, this is why we have to listen.

There was one person in particular who was quite provocative in their intranet forum posts about gender who I have learned a lot from. They are spectacularly talented in their field and they also put a lot of work into gender equality. They published a blog post on one of the popular internet military blogs and was cruelly abused on their opinions with serious gender and sexuality abuse. Much of it was moderated out but they took it very badly. Now, you could simply say they only said "insert abuse or micro-aggression here"...but add that to their life experience and it isn't so insignificant, especially as some of the abuse potentially came within their professional-orbit. We all have our limits and that experience hurt them deeply. Why is that ok?

Seemingly small changes can have a huge impact. My email sig is a very small outward manifestation of respect and support of folks across the gender spectrum...that may make someone feel seen. Why wouldn't I? It doesn't impact me, it doesn't make me less of a person but may make the recipient more comfortable in my presence, in a position of leadership this is important. Inclusive language, again, if it makes those around you more comfortable, why not?

When I interviewed to join the RAF, like many on this forum, I was asked what I thought about homosexuality etc. and what would I do if I became aware of a homosexual in the RAF....then, the rules changed and the organisation accepted homosexuals, much to its betterment. The organisation changed to better reflect the nation it serves. The world is constantly evolving and the military should keep up, as should all organisations. If you look at the modern military and compare and contrast to the past, it seems so alien that sort of behaviour was baked into the organisation. We're far more open about mental health issues, we are better at neuro-diversity. When I was a young-un it was weirdo's and misfits on the squadron rather than acceptance and understanding of neuro diversity.

When I read about some topics, it can make me feel uncomfortable and dismissive. On reflection, I think we all do that when our world-view is challenged. I have just learned to try and keep an open mind.

I don't always get it right, I am still learning My particular challenge is in situations of conflict and how to resolve situations where D&I has been weaponised, or, where groups clash...that's an ongoing challenge.

I get that the views of many of the white middle aged males who joined the RAF 30+ years ago are different to the gender fluid 20 year olds of today. But understanding works both ways, and the younger groups also need to acknowledge that the world was different 40 years ago and some of us may occasionally slip up with a word or phrase that was once considered acceptable but now can be deemed offensive by certain sections of society. I try very hard to ensure I dont offend folk, but sometimes I'm sure I do slip up, even in my own mind I question whether what I say has caused offence. I think back to a couple of years ago when I used the phrase "whiter than white" in a team brief when stressing the importance of keeping to the regulations even when we see other teams flouting them. Half my team was black or Asian, and although nobody said anything, I personally felt very bad the next day and bought doughnuts and apologised in person at the next day's brief. They were all absolutely fine with it and collectively said that it hadnt even registered with them, but nevertheless I recognised that I could have caused offence when it wasnt intended, and as a result, I speak much slower and carefully at work - often to the point where some of my colleagues think I'm losing my thought train, when actually I'm trying to choose my words to be completely PC.

Addressing someone with their accepted pronoun through a reply to an e-mail, or when you know them is much easier than when you are approaching a random Commissioned Officer who may or may not have a different take on pronoun use to me or you or anyone else. Can you ask your colleague how that said Commissioned Officer should be addressed when we throw up a salute? Sir/Ma'am or is it something else?

I dont think "Mate" will cut it, and in this day & age, "Sir/Ma'am" could cause offence. Similarly, I doubt the commissioned types are going to throw away 100+ years of tradition and culture and get shut of saluting or hat wearing, so something needs to be done. Similarly I doubt CAS is going to stop being "Sir Mike Wigston".

 

[busby1971]

In my role I'm normally a culture/diversity champion so have learnt to be mindful of what impacts my words can have, unintentional or not, however, whenever I enter an 'old school' environment where I am required to challenge embedded behaviours, I often find that directors and managers are more operationally focussed and the lack of EQ and Empathy can be pretty low and this is not helped through random red top newspaper articles who throw random facts like this most recent one to rile others up.

I'm currently helping with the set up of a new Distribution Centre and I am really pleased that the rest of the management team have, as have I, been given a huge culture target to achieve, and it's not a numbers game, its an activity target.

 

[Talk Wrench]

As an almost fluent speaker of one European language and a beginner at another, how is all this gender stuff going to affect established languages in the same way it's impacting English?

Le et la?

Der, die und das?

The French won't stand for it for starters so why should we?

 

[stereolab]

Addressing someone with their accepted pronoun through a reply to an e-mail, or when you know them is much easier than when you are approaching a random Commissioned Officer who may or may not have a different take on pronoun use to me or you or anyone else. Can you ask your colleague how that said Commissioned Officer should be addressed when we throw up a salute? Sir/Ma'am or is it something else?

Since when has it become necessary to converse with a commissioned officer when saluting?

 

[Spearmint]

I think back to a couple of years ago when I used the phrase "whiter than white" in a team brief when stressing the importance of keeping to the regulations even when we see other teams flouting them. Half my team was black or Asian, and although nobody said anything, I personally felt very bad the next day and bought doughnuts and apologised in person at the next day's brief. They were all absolutely fine with it and collectively said that it hadnt even registered with them, but nevertheless I recognised that.....

Maajid Nawaz: Is The Phrase "Whiter Than White" Racist?

Maajid Nawaz was astonished to hear that a senior police officer has been accused of racism for using the phrase "whiter than white" as he encouraged responsible policing.

www.lbc.co.uk

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.

I've used 'Whiter than White' and even 'Bomb Proof' in my observations on sticking to the regulations but nobody in my team (whatever their protected charateristic) decided to make a fuss. A lot of this baseless fuckery is personality driven and unfortunately they have an audience who are unwilling to look them straight in the eye and tell them to stop being so bloody stupid.

 

[Rigga]

Rank without Gender:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14...............and badges to suit...?

 

[Dirge]

Who's going to tell the Head of The Armed Forces that she can't be called ma'am any more?