Thieving Fire Fighters

[Twonston Pickle]

Bitburger,

Thank you for clarifying that point for me, as well as Firestorm etc. I must not have been providing a good explanation.

Firestorm,

As for:

So what are you doing about this for your underlings fella?

That's the whole point! We are not in a position to question this through any forum. We all, myself included, complained about the introduction of Pay 2000 but that's all we could do. If you have served with us before then you would not have asked such a bone question. I'm glad you have an outlet, we do not.

I do actually sympathise with your situation with regards to conditions and terms of service. I too have no wish to see a degradation in the capability of the Fire Service and I do not envy your long and hard struggle. But at the same time, I have no wish to be standing in for you; we are in a similar position but have no last resort except desertion/PVR etc (However, I joined for altruistic reasons and have enjoyed working with many fine colleagues so far).

Why do you think we are in a better position than you? I'm not saying we are worse off but maybe we should actually be bleating together at the Government (My god, you may have got through to me!)

 

[Weebl]

As a footnote. How many ex forces leave to join the Fire service?
How many ex Fire service leave to join the forces?? Answers on a postage stamp...or a free bluey.

You have lost me here? (although i appreciate the reasoned argument you have displayed rather than the complete fvckwittery of some of your colleagues)

If your point is that life in the fire service is so much harder, then why point out that people leave the RAF to join it rather than leave the fire service to join the 'cushy' RAF?

Whille i can appreciate you have an avenue to make your greivances known and are using it, Is strike action (that you know will be covered, after all, the powers that be know you will not actually put life at risk deliberately) the best way forward?

Just as we are, are you not stuffed by the 'can do' attitude that the higher ups take advantage of time and time again?

The major thing I see wrong with strike action is, the public are pretty much indifferent to it now, and the people that have to cover for you are p1ssed of with it. Is there another avenue you could follow that will actually get the public 'onside'? Because without that, you are buggered.

 

[scallywag]

The most difficult part is getting past government spin and getting the press/news to put over our side. The government and local authorities are quick to use the media, indeed, West Mids made all their 'revised' offers through the press. Many people think, 'It's just firefighters after more money', and that is how it comes over through the press.

They only show very small parts of interviews, and WILL NOT print anything from our side. I kid you not, I am speaking the truth in this. So how do we get the message over to the public?

During the last strike, I stood outside the station on picket. Most people offered their support, those that didn't, and decided to question us, soon realised what we were striking for, and almost everyone agreed with us, once they knew the truth.

Our FBU is not without fault. Those at the top of the FBU sold us down the river with an agreement with so many blanks and holes in it, even an idiot could see that it was left open to abuse. Many told the FBU that, but the 2003 agreement was taken on by us in good faith that our employers wouldn't take the pi*s and sh*t on us. Unfortunately, that faith was misplaced and now just about every county in the country is being sh*t on.

 

[Twonston Pickle]

My suggestion is that you up your media game; play the politicians at their own game and get the first blow in. How much better would it be if this story had emerged as follows:

(BBC/Sky/ITV)

"Shocking news is just breaking. Public safety will be compromised by the changes West Mids* authorities are planning to make to the Fire Service; stations are to close, shifts reduced in numbers and extended in times, reduced training. All this leads to a drop in capability and puts lives at risk. We put this to West Mids authorities who said...................etc etc"

* insert county/authority of choice.

If the story had developed that way then the authorities are already on the back foot and the public and media would fall on your side. They just happened to get the first media blow in. Maybe you should be trying to get on all the major news programmes and chat shows to get your points across?

 

[scallywag]

Been there, tried that, and got nowhere. The papers and press don't/won't/can't put in our side of the arguement. Even if it does get a mention, its a small piece on page 8. The government/local authoirties then put their story forward, usually getting a full page, front page, about how they are not cuts, but redeploying the resourses.

If you have 600 people to do a job within a given area, and then you take away 50 people from the same given area, (or as is often the case, a larger area), that can only be called a cut.

The only way that the cuts in fire cover will make the front pages is when the sh*t hits the fan and people die. Then if it was shown that it was down to a station being downgraded or shut, would the government/local authority be shown in a bad light. The press don't give a flying fu*k about the truth, as long as if makes a good story. As has been said before, 'Why spoil a good story with the truth'.

 

[spaniels ears]

I now feel that i'm better informed about the problems that you guys are up against thanks to the informative posts on this forum. The fact remains, however, that you chose to strike (in the knowledge that the forces would be drafted in as cover for you). You chose to deprive the public of your courage and expertise. I personally don't think that the emergency services should have the right to strike. It's admirable that you want to improve the service that you offer, but do you think that striking is going to help you achieve this? I don't i'm afraid. Media images of firefighters waving placards outside empty fire stations while overworked/underpaid squaddies cover for them will not win public favour, just generate more sympathy for the forces. Best of luck with the struggle with your lords and masters, but i can't help thinking that it's about time that you took a leaf out of the forces book and got on with the job that you're paid for.

 

[scallywag]

I have to say that to some degree, I agree with your statement about striking, I have no wish to strike, but let me put it another way.

Had we not gone on strike in 2002, our pay would have got further and further behind, just as I must add, is yours. Our shifts get worse, so the way that we were able to make ends meet, by doing an extra job, would also be taken away from us. Those of us with children, would not longer be able to proved child care, so either our partners would have to give up work, or we'd have to pay a childminder. What would we do once we started losing leave as well?

there comes a point, when you have to put a stop on employers that care nothing about safety, nothing about the public they are supposed to be protecting, nothing for the people that work for them. We have the FBU to stand and fight our corner.

So how do you stop management and the local authorities killing the fire service or crippling their workforce? You tell me what action we could take that would stop the cuts to the service and our conditions of service, and I'll put them forward for consideration. We tried doing the 'work-to-rule, that was pointless, it gained nothing. We tried going to the public, who are, despite what you might think, still, on the whole, right behind us. We tried going to the press, who ignored what we say. I have written to the local and national press, putting forward what is really happening, backed up by figures and facts, but not one of them printed anything.

If we don't make a stand somewhere, they will keep coming back for more and more. I don't know of one firefighter that WANTS to strike, but we all agree we HAVE to with all the sh*t that's coming our way. No, we don't want you lads doing our job, we know and feel for you, doing what is a dangerous and difficult job, without proper training, equipment the desire. But, sadly, taking strike action is the only way that management can be stopped from sh*tting on us and taking more and more.

I asked before, what other workers in this country work 6 out of 8 days, 4 of those being at night in one form or another, NEVER get a full weekend off unless we are on annual leave, and all with NO SHIFT PAY? Please don't suggest that you RAF chaps do that, I've worked in the RAF and have NEVER heard of anyone working that shift. Oh and before someone tells us that we sleep at night, beds are going too, so when we work nights we work.

 

[firestorm]

Bitburger,

Thank you for clarifying that point for me, as well as Firestorm etc. I must not have been providing a good explanation.

Firestorm,

As for:



That's the whole point! We are not in a position to question this through any forum. We all, myself included, complained about the introduction of Pay 2000 but that's all we could do. If you have served with us before then you would not have asked such a bone question. I'm glad you have an outlet, we do not.

I do actually sympathise with your situation with regards to conditions and terms of service. I too have no wish to see a degradation in the capability of the Fire Service and I do not envy your long and hard struggle. But at the same time, I have no wish to be standing in for you; we are in a similar position but have no last resort except desertion/PVR etc (However, I joined for altruistic reasons and have enjoyed working with many fine colleagues so far).

Why do you think we are in a better position than you? I'm not saying we are worse off but maybe we should actually be bleating together at the Government (My god, you may have got through to me!)

Now we are getting somewhere! I'm glad I came onto this forum now.
Right then. Your not in a position to fight your corner, but if you were, you would! That's what we are doing. You are not alone with ignorant boneheaded bigots managing you, we have them in spades. Don't slag us for fighting the bean counters it's our outlet.
It is a shame that you have to stand in for us, we'd rather the whole thing is sorted amicably, but our managers now seem to despise us and want to strip any remaining conditions from us, as well as firecover. I know your last resorts, but I wouldn't condone desertion...just yet! (I PVR'd)

I have never said that I think you are in a better position than your good selves, I should know as I've done both, I enjoyed my time in (until the last few months) but I'd never go back to it. It would be fantastic to both have a go at the Govt. as we are both being screwed by them, but its not an option, you can't and they don't listen to us!

Lordy! Some consensus!

 

[firestorm]

You have lost me here? (although i appreciate the reasoned argument you have displayed rather than the complete fvckwittery of some of your colleagues)

If your point is that life in the fire service is so much harder, then why point out that people leave the RAF to join it rather than leave the fire service to join the 'cushy' RAF?

Whille i can appreciate you have an avenue to make your greivances known and are using it, Is strike action (that you know will be covered, after all, the powers that be know you will not actually put life at risk deliberately) the best way forward?

Just as we are, are you not stuffed by the 'can do' attitude that the higher ups take advantage of time and time again?

The major thing I see wrong with strike action is, the public are pretty much indifferent to it now, and the people that have to cover for you are p1ssed of with it. Is there another avenue you could follow that will actually get the public 'onside'? Because without that, you are buggered.

I know your life isn't cushy, been there, done that. The point was about how many ex services bods join us. It was probably a weak point.
As I have said before we are dealing with managers who refuse point blank to negotiate with us, strike is the very last resort. Our managers now are ignoring and cherry picking whatever suits them from the sh1te agreement we went back for after the 03 strike. These aren't reasonable people we are dealing with. Strike is the ONLY option left in many cases though we hate using it. We do other industrial action first, such as suspension of prearranged overtime and not doing temporary promotion (all brigades run on temp promotion). These are things we do before strike.
The can do attitude as you put it simply means are managers say to Govt. They can do it! then they tell us to do it! An example of this is co-responding. Instead of sending an ambulance to your grans heart attack they want to send us with a defib. Whats the problem with this you say? Well if I told you that less than 1 in 4 London firefighters hold a valid certificate in first aid that may put it into perspective. Who's going to put our fires out when we have detained a crew for an hour, waiting for an ambulance? Its just a statistical exercise so the Govt. can say how quick the ambulance service is responding to heart attacks.
I've said before that I am sad that you are also being buggered about, but there is little else we can do. We've had public "consultation" about cuts, the public overwhelmingly didn't want any, but they went ahead anyway. The public don't care in the political process of cuts and strikes, as long as they get a fire engine to their door.

 

[firestorm]

My suggestion is that you up your media game; play the politicians at their own game and get the first blow in. How much better would it be if this story had emerged as follows:

(BBC/Sky/ITV)

"Shocking news is just breaking. Public safety will be compromised by the changes West Mids* authorities are planning to make to the Fire Service; stations are to close, shifts reduced in numbers and extended in times, reduced training. All this leads to a drop in capability and puts lives at risk. We put this to West Mids authorities who said...................etc etc"

* insert county/authority of choice.

If the story had developed that way then the authorities are already on the back foot and the public and media would fall on your side. They just happened to get the first media blow in. Maybe you should be trying to get on all the major news programmes and chat shows to get your points across?

As has been said, been there, done that. It just doesn't work I'm afraid. It frustrates the crap out of me too!

 

[firestorm]

I now feel that i'm better informed about the problems that you guys are up against thanks to the informative posts on this forum. The fact remains, however, that you chose to strike (in the knowledge that the forces would be drafted in as cover for you). You chose to deprive the public of your courage and expertise. I personally don't think that the emergency services should have the right to strike. It's admirable that you want to improve the service that you offer, but do you think that striking is going to help you achieve this? I don't i'm afraid. Media images of firefighters waving placards outside empty fire stations while overworked/underpaid squaddies cover for them will not win public favour, just generate more sympathy for the forces. Best of luck with the struggle with your lords and masters, but i can't help thinking that it's about time that you took a leaf out of the forces book and got on with the job that you're paid for.

I'm glad you are reading the posts and understanding them.
We don't strike to annoy you! Its a by product of the action. Many of us are ex forces too so w know what you're up against. Its not a fire service v armed forces thing, you deserve every bit of sympathy you get.
As I said before, you are shafted, probably more than we are, but if you had a representative body (I know, its hypothetical) you'd threaten action now and then yourselves.

Someone earlier in the thread said that you don't hear of Firefighters getting killed any more, it just doesn't happen. Well we've lost 5 so far in fires this year and there are only 45,000 of us and many of them are part time (retained).

I'm glad we are getting some common ground and understanding. Good luck to you all.

 

[M.O.T.H]

I now feel that i'm better informed about the problems that you guys are up against thanks to the informative posts on this forum. The fact remains, however, that you chose to strike (in the knowledge that the forces would be drafted in as cover for you). You chose to deprive the public of your courage and expertise. I personally don't think that the emergency services should have the right to strike. It's admirable that you want to improve the service that you offer, but do you think that striking is going to help you achieve this? I don't i'm afraid. Media images of firefighters waving placards outside empty fire stations while overworked/underpaid squaddies cover for them will not win public favour, just generate more sympathy for the forces. Best of luck with the struggle with your lords and masters, but i can't help thinking that it's about time that you took a leaf out of the forces book and got on with the job that you're paid for.

and how else do you propose we fight cuts in YOUR fire service the fire service we fight to maintain optimum operational standards so as to give yours (and our) families the protection we as tax payers pay for
its an old cliché but
CUTS COST LIVES
and this government is hell bend on decimating the fire service
(was shafted in mob too and i will be buggered if i am going to continue getting shafted without a damn good fight)

 

[firestorm]

Yes, I too agree, so lets stoke that fire to the max

Lets start off with wages shall we.


Firefighters' Pay

What are Firefighters paid?

The basic annual salaries for Firefighters in the UK from November 2003 are as follows:

£18,522 per annum (Firefighter aged 19+ in the first six months of service)
£29,523 per annum (Station Officer in the first six months of service)
£44,385 per annum (Senior Divisional Officer in the first year of service)

This breaks down to an hourly rate of £6.81, £13.47 and £20.26, respectively.

Firefighters' pay is a highly political issue because of a series of national on-off strikes by firefighters during 2002 and 2003, demanding substantial pay rises.

Some 50,000 firefighters nationwide are represented by the Fire Brigades Union (FBU), which led the dispute.




Airmans' Pay



What are Airmen Paid?

The basic annual salaries for Airmen (Non Aircrew) in the UK from April 2005 are as follows:


Leading/Senior Air Craftsmen SAC (Tech) & Junior Technician

Level 1 £13,866 And this man can be deployed anywhere in the world on this pay.

Level 9 £25,043 after 9 years in the job




Level 1 = year 1
Level 9 = year 9



Other interesting facts

The firemen only work shifts of 12 hours, we are on 24 hour duty.

Firemen night shifts are a sleeping duty, ours are not.

Firemen do not have to be deployed into every troublespot in the world.

Firemen do not have to do gate guard.


Firefighter manning is presently at 50000+, the RAF is on its way down from 48000 to 42000 (These are rough figures) so why the hell are we doing all these pillocks jobs as well as doing our own when we have less men than them?


Maybe old uncle Tony should take a look at this, and give the armed forces a payrise for being his arse saver everytime something goes wrong.



Where do i start with this??
We now have two levels of pay, development and competent. So a 15 year firefighter will soon be on the same money as a newly competent firefighter, a little over 25K. This is because when we where "modernised" we gave up long service incremental pay, (we were told it was "potentially discriminatory!) In effect people over 15 years took a pay cut! (greedy tw@ts aren't we?! So a level 9 SAC is in effect on more money than a 15 year firefighter with your "notional" 11% pension contributions! Puts it into some perspective doesn't it!?
Yes you are paid 23.59 hours a day but you're not at work are you? If you are pretending you are then you drink and sleep on duty! We work a series of shifts from days (9day fortnight, soon to change so daystaff also do w/ends) to 9 hour days/15 hour nights, 12/12 shifts(no beds in some brigades) there are many.
When I was a RAF FF we slept on nights! As did a few other shift trades so lets not go there eh? If you think it a nice nights sleep then think again.
Firefighters can (and are) be deployed to earthquake and disaster zones anywhere in the world and are always available for recall to "Gold Command" incidents, as we were during the strike.
No we don't do gate guard, but then its not comparable, you don't deal with young offenders schemes. I did gate guard twice in my time in the RAF.

The figures you quoted are not in fact correct. There are 45000 firefighters in the UK a huge percentage of these are retained (part time) firefighters, equivalent to your reserve, did you count them?
When you look into it a bit more it sheds a different light on it doesn't it?

Feel free to "stoke that fire to the max!"

 

[spaniels ears]

M.O.T.H.
don't know the best way to try and improve the fire service i'm afraid. (I'm in the RAF. As you'll remember, we just moan a lot and then get on with it). What i do know is that I've learned more about your situation in 10 pages of this forum than i did throughout the whole period of the strikes. The FBU guy who was constantly on the TV just came over as a money grabber to me (my opinion i'm afraid). I don't know whether firefighter's wages are fair or not (nobody thinks they're paid enough money do they?) I know that you couldn't pay me enough to run into a burning building; however, any improvements have to be paid for, and in order to prise money out of the government you'll need to have public support. I reckon that all the waving and horn tooting in support of the strikers died down a lot towards the end of the last round of strikes and it won't be any different again. If there's a genuine concern amoungst you guys, then this sort of info needs to be in the public eye. (perhaps your well paid union execs aren't publicising your case enough?) I just know that you won't get any support from me (or most people that i know) while you're standing outside fire stations and waving banners.
Stay safe

 

[scallywag]

So, in our position, what would you do? Just a question, not a slap in the face.

 

[spaniels ears]

And i guess it's the million dollar question isn't it? You rightly said in a previous post that the government will ensure that it spins much of the media comment to suit it's own ends. I don't doubt that for a moment. I think it's disgusting that the emergency services are having to fight for much needed funding (lets not forget that nurses have been paid sh1te for years). If you blokes were to earn £30k, sleep all night and do a window cleaning round all day then good luck to you. I've spent 16 yrs in the mob and done a fair bit of ducking and diving myself, but all on the understanding that it could all go pear shaped at a moment's notice. I'm sure it's no different for you when you get a shout, and that's what's important i think. In my humble opinion, you need to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. with the media onside). One picture of a blackened firefighter pulling a child from a building on the front cover of the Sun will surely do you the world of good. The same front cover with a picture of a dozen guys with their hands in their pockets does you a world of harm. Just imagine how much sympathy you'd have got if you'd have been on strike when the Herc crashed in Iraq! Public opinion is a very fickle thing and you need to publicise the good work that you do and not let your union blokes bore people and lose their attention. I'm afraid i see the world in a fairly black and white way and i think that when the emergency services go on strike then it belittles all the good work that they've done previously.
Not the solution you're looking for i guess

 

[firestorm]

And i guess it's the million dollar question isn't it? You rightly said in a previous post that the government will ensure that it spins much of the media comment to suit it's own ends. I don't doubt that for a moment. I think it's disgusting that the emergency services are having to fight for much needed funding (lets not forget that nurses have been paid sh1te for years). If you blokes were to earn £30k, sleep all night and do a window cleaning round all day then good luck to you. I've spent 16 yrs in the mob and done a fair bit of ducking and diving myself, but all on the understanding that it could all go pear shaped at a moment's notice. I'm sure it's no different for you when you get a shout, and that's what's important i think. In my humble opinion, you need to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. with the media onside). One picture of a blackened firefighter pulling a child from a building on the front cover of the Sun will surely do you the world of good. The same front cover with a picture of a dozen guys with their hands in their pockets does you a world of harm. Just imagine how much sympathy you'd have got if you'd have been on strike when the Herc crashed in Iraq! Public opinion is a very fickle thing and you need to publicise the good work that you do and not let your union blokes bore people and lose their attention. I'm afraid i see the world in a fairly black and white way and i think that when the emergency services go on strike then it belittles all the good work that they've done previously.
Not the solution you're looking for i guess

Have you ever tried to get your point across to a media that just don't care? And you quoted The ScUm newspaper! That comic is still banned on many station after the outright lies and spin it pumped out during the strike. Remember the blackened Wren with a baby in arms she "rescued" being plastered all over the front pages last time? The child was in fact rescued by a fire crew who broke their picket line and passed out the child to a RN BA crew, the pic was taken and the spin began, only a threat of legal action made the paper come clean and admit the truth, I also believe the Wren was a bit embarrassed by it all. That's the kind of hostile media we have to deal with. We're heroes when we're picking up bits of bomb victims, but "friends of Saddam" when we are forced into industrial action.
Don't get hung up on the public opinion red herring, the public are not informed of whats really happening. If they knew they'd have a sh1t fit. Catch 22, the public aren't informed, the national media won't tell them. That's why you are seeing local strikes around the country on local issues. We were accused of scaremongering in the strike by saying the service was going to be decimated, well I'm afraid we're being proved true with fire stations closing and downgrading.
You mentioned the union bloke during the strike, Andy Gilchrist. Well we sacked him and many of his sidekicks, they were incompetent. It's a very difficult thing keeping public attention about things like IRMP's, safety plans, reduction in ridership level. I've said before, all the public care about is calling 999 and us getting there fast.
Its not unusual for forces bods to see the world in black and white, but when you rejoin civvy street, you will find out its a murky shade of grey, things aren't so cut and dried outside of military bases.

I don't sleep all night, I don't have a window round. But the very fact that some of my colleagues have to have a second job, after a basic week of 42 hours, the longest basic week in the public services must say something to you.(I also did a bit of part time in the RAF, it's not illegal, ask any dodgy MP!)

 

[spaniels ears]

last post on this one now. You're obviously passionate about what you're trying to do but we're not going to agree on the best way forward i reckon. I don't argue that you shouldn't do extra work. You're quite right, it's legal and i've done it myself and been stung for the extra tax. As for the "public opinion red herring", unfortunately it's public opinion that'll get you what you want. Ultimately, we all know that you'll get as little funding as the government can get away with (as will the forces) and if, as i'm led to believe, there are plenty of applicants to join the fire service then you're pretty much buggered without public backing.
Take care

 

[fat lazy techie]

So what about the nurses then?
Mrs Techie happens to be a nurse and is feeling the effect of understaffing within the NHS, as are hell of a lot of nurses. Do they threaten to strike? Will they strike?
The answer to the latter is NO. Why? Because they care about their job and feel a sense of duty to their patients. They have to work in, often, unpleasent environments. Put up with abusive patients/relatives. Work the whole shift on their feet with minimal time for a break. Often have to work over thier shift time with no recognition or extra pay. Sometimes the shift patterns only give the minimum rest period between shifts (late then early) on a regular basis.

Take a look at their pay.
3 years university training on a miserly bursary of £500 per month (approx).

For those trusts who haven't implemented agenda for change:
D Grade £17,610 - £19,473
E Grade £18,818 - £22,725

For those trusts that have implemented agenda for change:
Band 5 (D&E Grades (staff nurse & senior staff nurse)) £18,698 - £24,198
Band 6 (F&G Grades (sisters & senior sisters)) £22,328 - £30,247

 

[scallywag]

Ok, first, we tried the newspaper. During the strike, a child was rescued, I can't remeber where. As it was a 'persons reported', (where there is a known life risk), the fire brigade turned out, just as we all did in such emergencies. The military crew, rightly, stood back and let the full time firefighters get on with their job. a child was brought out, and because there was possibley still more people inside, they handed the child to a female service person. When the pictures from the fire came out, do you think the firefighters who did the rescue got the credit? Did they get credit for leaving their picket lines to save a life? NO, the picture, and mis-written story told how the 'hero' female military person had saved the life of a small child from a fire while those nasty, lazy firefighters stood on their picket lines. That made the front page of the Sun. There was uproar and the paper was given the real story. It NEVER saw the light of day.

That is the task we have against the press.

I agree, nurses are badly paid, but, and I say this and expect some come back, I BELIEVE, (not know 100%), that nurses have a lower basic working week, I also believe that they get shift allowance and can earn overtime. I fully expect a horde of angry nurses slagging me off now! I agree though, nurses should be paid more, so should the ambulance service. Unfortuneately, we have all undergone what this government call 'modernisation', in other words cuts and worsening of conditions of service.

Finally, on the subject of us firefighters sleeping all night. I don't say that we don't sleep, i know there are some stations where some sleep all night, but most city stations are in and out all night. And as pointed out, I've been an RAF firefighter, I've slept at night, I also worked 72 hour weekends, where we lived on the station and slept all night every night. I also know that you sometimes do gate guard or guard room duty. Sorry, I've been there and seen what happens, going to get your head down for a couple of hours in the cells.

Its time to get away from this us and them. We are all being sh*t on from a great height, unfortuneately, you chaps can't do anything about it, except leave, we can. The avenues open to us are limited. I think that striking is the worst kind of action and I hate to do it, but there comes a time when you need to stand your ground while you still have some ground to stand on.