Thieving Fire Fighters

[M.O.T.H]

PRESS RELEASE. Northumberland Fire Service Cuts



The Northumberland public need more time and more balanced information
about the proposed closures of four full time fire stations at Ashington,
Blyth, Cramlington and Morpeth in south east Northumberland. The Fire
Brigades Union called for the public consultation period to be extended
beyond the 18 November deadline and said it would not do deals behind closed
doors.



The move follows admissions by the county council at a series of public
meetings that the plans are meant to deliver cuts and not the improvements
they originally claimed.



Northumberland FBU Chair, Colin James said: "The public need a clear and
balanced view of the options and honesty about what is behind these
proposals. So far Mr Hesler, the chief fire officer, has tried to pull the
wool over their eyes and given them biased and one-sided information.



"Mr Hesler admits he is biased towards his own proposals for two
privately funded fire stations which would burden the county council with
GBP10 million in debt. At the same time the council is discussing plans to
close care homes for the sake of a few hundred thousand pounds.



"More than two years' work and hundreds of thousands of pounds in wages
and other costs have been spent putting together plans which the public don't
want and firefighters on the frontline say we don't need.



"The public have a right to open and honest consultation and the county
council needs to give more time to ensure this happens. The chief fire
officer wants to meet us urgently now to discuss further his proposals but
local firefighters are not going to do a deal behind the public's back."

 

[M.O.T.H]

Peril of cuts to fire service



A leading South Staffs firefighter is claiming the villages around Wolverhampton are being placed in serious danger because of a proposed cutback in fire appliances, which he believes is being wrapped up as 'increased community protection'.

Bob Edwards, who has been fighting fires for the last 25 years, told Wombourne parish councillors this week that he feared for the village if a major fire occurred.

Mr Edwards said: "An Integrated Risk Management report is due to be published next March. It is in draft form at present and talks of increased community protection and reduction in injury and deaths, but I just can't accept this can possibly be true. I have tried to get answers to my concerns but I can get no response, either as a firefighter or as a taxpayer.

"An outside consultation company has been employed to talk to people, but the bottom line is that in Wombourne we are to lose one appliance which will bring us down to one. We are told in the event of a major incident we can call on the four other stations in the area, but they too have had a second engine removed.

"I feel it is time to let everyone know of this danger. When Wombourne Fire Station was built, it was a three pump station - now it is one. I am very worried.







"If we have to use the services of fire stations in Wolverhampton, Brierley Hill, Dudley or Stourbridge, neither our breathing apparatus nor our foam are compatible with those stations. The foam concentrate is a different density.


"And there will have to be a charge for the use of another station, so I just can't see this working on any level, be it safety or finance."


Cllr Peter Timms said a meeting was being arranged with Codsall councillors to look at the whole issue of the fire and rescue service in South Staffs.


Cllr Timms said: "This is regionalisation by the back door.


"It has come directly from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. The same is applying to the police and ambulance services. Politics will cost people's lives."


Cllr Paddy Kelly said: "It seems to me that those making the decisions are using the statistics to meet their own arguments.


"When Wombourne was half the size it is today it had three engines. To cut it to one is horrendous. Imagine a situation where there is a road traffic collision on the A449 and a number of fire appliances are needed, and, at the same time there is a house fire in the village, just what happens if there is no back up?"


Councillors decided to discuss the matter at their next finance meeting.

 

[krusty]

Having come round (a little) to what the firefighters have being trying to tell us, I do feel a slight bit sceptical and have to agree with Plumber when he requested more evidence of the "cuts".

Here you go.

CLICK HERE

Have a read then come back and tell me you're still sceptical.

You will have to register first.

 

[Plumber]

Oh and for the record the majority of firefighters do not have a second job
and in comparisson you are in a relatively well paid job
non-contributory pension payable upon 22 years service (correct me if wrong please)
decent leave
cheap flights
3 square meals a day


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make plumber see sense.

When did I say I didn't have a decent paid job?

Decent leave? Yes if you can get any after having to go to a war zone then come back and start doing other peoples jobs for them because they refuse to see the writing on the wall or accept new practices are not at the expense of safety.

Cheap flights? Well to the latest and hottest holiday destinations in the world maybe. How's about Club 18-30 downtown Kabul, have a riot in Basra etc etc. Cheap flights are a long distant memory.

3 meals a day. Maybe for the guys who live on base and pay for it. The majority of us actually have fend for ourselves in the big wide world.

As for the last dig I'm not even going to rise to it.

 

[JohnPrescott]

When did I say I didn't have a decent paid job?

Decent leave? Yes if you can get any after having to go to a war zone then come back and start doing other peoples jobs for them because they refuse to see the writing on the wall or accept new practices are not at the expense of safety.

Cheap flights? Well to the latest and hottest holiday destinations in the world maybe. How's about Club 18-30 downtown Kabul, have a riot in Basra etc etc. Cheap flights are a long distant memory.

3 meals a day. Maybe for the guys who live on base and pay for it. The majority of us actually have fend for ourselves in the big wide world.

As for the last dig I'm not even going to rise to it.

This i could take from a soldier, not the RAF.

I notice you left out the free pension ?.

 

[Plumber]

This i could take from a soldier, not the RAF.

?????? Explain the last comment then.

 

[Bluntend]

Forgive me for quoting our doctrine but I feel the following is relevant as it highlights some of the differences between Fire fighters and Servicemen.

“The Military Life is one of service to the security and defence imperatives of the Nation. It is about professional duties taking precedence over personal interests, the willingness to serve other people before ourselves – “Service before Self” – and is a move away from the self-centred attitude often prevalent in our consumer society. Service incorporates the values of loyalty, commitment and teamwork, focusing them on military life. Service may ultimately be about laying down one’s life for others; consequently it takes considerable courage.

Our first loyalty is always, through the Service, to the Crown…earned through commitment, self sacrifice, example and courage”

No one here is denying the Fire Service the recognition it deserves for the job it does, you only have to think back to 7 July this year for a quick reminder of how vital all of our emergency services are in a crisis. Nevertheless, we signed up for military life knowing full well what the implications were. We knew from the point when we were attested or commissioned that if we were unhappy with the job, the pressures, the demands and the risks then we could leave through the accepted PVR route. A route that some individuals, now serving the Fire-fighters, chose to follow. The option to withhold our service not just to our political Lords and Masters but to the Crown, goes against everything we stand for. Our loyalty is enshrined in our doctrine, taught from day one of basic training and even for a Service as young as the RAF, our commitment to such traditional values remains solid. It is not a case that we cannot go on strike, simply that we choose not to.

Maybe our animosity is misplaced, however, it is not without foundation. If members of the Fire Service feel that we don’t understand the situation you are in, maybe instead of inviting us to visit picket lines or Fire Stations, you should come and visit us. Serving as a RAF Fireman even as recently as two or three years ago, does not, IMHO, qualify you to comment on the current level of workload, morale, operational tasking etc. Neither does having ‘plenty of RAF mates’. If you genuinely believe that are lives are “cosy” and that we’re “living in the hazy days of 1950s Britain” you need to talk to us, not the other way around:

In response to M.O.T.H’s post:

“Relatively well-paid job” – compared to who? Who else does what we do?
“Non-contributory pension payable upon 22 years service (correct me if wrong please)” – Pension deducted ‘at source’. Our pay grade is calculated to take into account that we do contribute into our own pension fund.
“Decent leave” – That depends if you can actually take it. Remember, for us, leave is a privilege and not a right. We are employed 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It’s a cliché but its true. If we’re needed, in accordance with our own law, we can be recalled without argument or right to redress. This is happening more often as tasking (FBU cover, for example) increases.
“Cheap flights” – Correct. Very, very cheap flights to an increasing number of quite hot and sandy ‘resorts’. There is also such a thing as an ‘indulgence flight’ where spare capacity on Military transport is sold off to servicemen and their dependants. If you are a fan of the Falkland Islands or Goose Bay this one’s for you.
“3 square meals a day” – paid for by us.


Maybe you are right, maybe you are not the enemy and this should not be a “fire service vs armed forces thing”, however, your misguided accusations of being over paid, under worked, ignorant Sun reading ‘thickos’ sure as hell doesn’t go far to ensure a healthy friendship. If you are unhappy that so many serving members of the Armed Forces resent your actions and attitudes, you only have yourselves to blame. Good luck in securing the changes you want but in the mean time, please do not look to us for sympathy or support.

Oh, and JP, if you'd rather speak to a soldier, please feel free to log onto ARRSE. There are plenty of soldiers keen to hear your side of the story - Good Luck.

 

[M_for_Mother]

No one cares about your dispute with the Government. We do take umbridge at your chosen method of settling your dispute. Strike Action is messy and, if this latest example is anything to go by, not wholly successful.

There are many ways to force the Goverment's hand without resulting to Striking. Leaking to the media, public involvment, petitioning & lobbying are but a few. Don't say you've tried all those, because nobody has a scooby what you guys are trying to achieve.

The problem is that youre all so ignorant of alternative means of negotiation that you blindly follow the ramblings of the few politicos amongst your ranks.

Can any of you honestly say that you have tried alternatives to Strike Action?

 

[scallywag]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[krusty]

No one cares about your dispute with the Government. We do take umbridge at your chosen method of settling your dispute. Strike Action is messy and, if this latest example is anything to go by, not wholly successful.

There are many ways to force the Goverment's hand without resulting to Striking. Leaking to the media, public involvment, petitioning & lobbying are but a few. Don't say you've tried all those, because nobody has a scooby what you guys are trying to achieve.

The problem is that youre all so ignorant of alternative means of negotiation that you blindly follow the ramblings of the few politicos amongst your ranks.

Can any of you honestly say that you have tried alternatives to Strike Action?

Yes we honestly can say we've tried ALL the alternatives.
That you say you don't care what the goverment is doing to the service speaks volumes about your cocooned little world.

These cuts will effect EVERY SINGLE BRITISH CITIZEN.

Nobody knows what we are trying to achieve because good old HMG controls what is reported and published by the media.

Strike action is ALWAYS a last resort.

If you had taken the time to research the subject you (wrongly)profess to know so much about you would know that all other avenues of negotiation have been exhausted.

With respect ,you really don't know what you're talking about.

 

[scallywag]

M for Mother, we've tried all those things you suggest.

Please read others posts about the press and the way they deal with us. Look back at one of my post where I give a very clear and honest example.

Do you really think that we WANT to strike? Remember we also live in homes that will have no fire cover, so we don't take the action lightly. Striking is the very last thing we want to do believe me, but there comes a time when you have to stand up for yourselves and say, 'enough is enough' and do something about it. We've tried all that you suggest and more, and still we get no where, strike action is a last resort. Remember, while we are on strike, we don't get paid, so it's hitting us hard in the pocket.

I will say this once again for those that still don't understand;

THIS IS NOT ABOUT PAY, IT'S ABOUT DANGEROUS CUTS TO THE FIRE SERVICE, CUTS THAT WILL BE DANGEROUS TO BOTH THE PUBLIC WE SERVE AND OURSELVES.

 

[krusty]

Maybe you are right, maybe you are not the enemy and this should not be a “fire service vs armed forces thing”, however, misguided accusations of being over paid, under worked, ignorant Sun reading ‘thickos’ sure as hell doesn’t go far to ensure a healthy friendship.

Oh ,excuse us.
I'm sorry we started this thread.

Hang on a mo ,wasn't it started by an RAF member having a go at us?

I must be getting mixed up!

"Misguided accusations"

Look in the mirror pal!

 

[Twonston Pickle]

JP & MOTH,

Your posts show as much ignorance from you that you claim we have about the fire service. At least Firestorm can articulate his point effectively and had opened my eyes somewhat to your plight. However, I state again, I would like some concrete survey/review, rather than opinions on a forum or from a politician, that conclude safety will be compromised by these cuts.

I think my colleagues have adequately rebuffed the suggestions of cheap travel, leave etc but I would like to add that I find the suggestion that the RAF is not as knowledgable as the Army (in terms of deployment) highly offensive, particularly as I served for 4 months alongside the Army on the ground. Moreover, I suggest that some of you luddites read the impressive story of one WO Andy Pittock (RAF); he exemplifies everything that Bluntend mentioned in his last post. Oh, and he's a firefighter to boot!

I think the pension issue has been covered sufficiently; if you are unable to understand that then I cannot be bothered trying to understand your point of view!

 

[scallywag]

One other point. Someone said that we want more fire appliances and more firefighters to do our job. Ok, so forget for one moment that fire calls, road traffic accidents, and all the other emergencies are rising year after year, but our numbers are dropping rapidly at the same time, I would ask you if you have heard about the Pathfinder Review?

Ok, so you haven't, so let me enlighten you. The Pathfinder review took a couple of years to put together. It was a review set up by the government, where they went round brigades and looked at their workload, fire calls, incidents, a really in depth investigation. The results were that the Pathfinder Review came out with was that the Fire Service of the UK was understaffed and underfunded, it even went on to say that we should have half as many firefighters again as we have now. I should point out that this review wasn't done by firefighters either.

The government didn't like the results, so they shelved the review, hoping it would go away and be forgotten. Then when firefighters went for more pay, again, not recommended by us, they set up another review, one they KNEW would find what the government wanted it to find. We didn't pluck 30K out of the air, it was the figure was desided by a completely independant body, (who also indicated that M.P'S should have a 40%+ pay rise, which Mr Blair and the rest of the cabinet happily gave themselves only months before refusing our pay claim). The government then got Mr Bain to come in, and basically find exactly what the government wanted him to find. Suddenly, from a review that took a couple of years and recommended increasing the fire service by half again, turned into a review by someone who knew sod all about the fire service telling us we could do the job with something like 10,000 less staff.

Right now, most brigades have run their staffing levels down below a safe level, so we too can't get leave, we also lose it. Sorry, but if you go overseas and lose leave, you get it when you get back. Even if you get sent on to do something else, you still get it carried over. I know, I've done it. Please don't treat those of us on her with service history like fools.

The government want to cut cost, nothing more. Its not just us, its happening in all the public sectors. I hope you chaps are good at first aid, it looks like you might be covering the ambulance service again soon. They have been fu*ked with so much, they too have had enough.

 

[rest have risen above me]

Underlying Thread

Underlying Thread

I've been watching this thread with a bit of interest. Apart from the slanging areas I personally am quite interested in what cuts (re-organisations, efficiency measures etc) are being applied. Although not an adept debater of topics I can see a trend when it appears. The firefighters arguing their point here on the RAF forum seem to keep bringing conditions of service into the argument. I might be brought round to agreeing to industrial action to fight against cuts but action because you've got to work a different pattern or travel allowance is a different matter. I apologise to the firefighters who are genuinely worried but your argument keeps being invaded by matters that aren't safety critical. Now whether that is because as has been stated before your union has been hi jacked by people with their own agenda or because maybe that is where the roots of the argument lie, is a moot point the point is that it is hurting your argument to even mention the subjects.

 

[scallywag]

Ok, proof.

Difficult to actually show you hard documents, but how about this.

In Nottinghamshire, there is a couple of areas, Beeston and Dunkirk. Dunkirk has huge factory complexes, Boots being one of them. It also has a huge hospital complex. Beeson covers a huge area which is most homes, but also has its fair share of factories, a huge railway terminal and the big University. At the moment, it is covered by three full time fire engines, 1 part time fire appliance and a rescue tender. Our Chief Fire Officer wants to change that to 2 full time fire appliances only. 2 fire engines to cover that area is insane.

That's not all. He also wants to get rid of Central fire station, the main one in the city. Not only are there many businesses, but also a huge amount of housing, flats, student accomadation, night clubs, the list goes on and on. Who is going to cover this now firefighterless area? All the out lying stations. but wait, Beeston and Dunkirk are going to be dropped in numbers. Its not over yet, he also thinks that West Brigdeford could do with one less pump, so thats even less coverage.

You think that's all? No, he has gone on record as saying that in his opinion, we don't need 5 firefighters on a pump, we can get away with 4, this is despite it being a requiement to have 5 on the first pump. That would mean that the WHOLE of the city of Nottingham is covered by something like 25 firefighters. Hows that?

I'm sure that someone from west mids can tell you what cuts they are going to have.

 

[Twonston Pickle]

Scallywag, you are a fool:

Right now, most brigades have run their staffing levels down below a safe level, so we too can't get leave, we also lose it. Sorry, but if you go overseas and lose leave, you get it when you get back. Even if you get sent on to do something else, you still get it carried over. I know, I've done it. Please don't treat those of us on her with service history like fools.

You obviously served some time ago as things have changed significantly. PODL (Post Operational Detachment Leave) is not a right but a privilige and may be cancelled by the powers that be; it is not then carried over. We are given the privilige of 30 days annual leave; I have never yet used more than 20 days of leave in a year due to operational commitments. In one year, I actually carried over 23 days (having only taken 7 days off that year, including Xmas ); this was an exception to the rules as you can normally carry over only 15 days a year. This is, however, a pointless rule as you never actually manage to catch up.

The main point being that things change. If you are not willing to listen to us about our service then why should we listen to you about yours? This is degenerating into a them vs us arguement that serves no purpose. All you have to do is convince me and my colleagues why and how safety will be compromised and why we should support you. Easy isn't it?

Edited to include a response to Scallywag's second post whislt I was typing. Scallywag, on the face of it, your point is well made. However, what you don't provide is stats:

How many fires have there been in the last year in that area?
How many appliances were required?
How many firefighters were required?
How many incidents were "persons reported"?
When do most incidents occur?
Where do most incidents occur?

I would suggest that, at the very least, your management has asked themselves those questions. I am clearly no firefighter but with a little applied thinking, even I can come up with relevant questions. Your management will not have done their calculations on the back of a fag packet; were they not all basic firefighters once?

 

[M_for_Mother]

Can we have examples (dates/times/methods) of your alternatives to Strike Action?

Surely, if you have tried everything, you can find some proof that this is a last resort - you are right though, I cannot find a single reference to your negotiations on any of the broadsheets' websites, so I suppose the press must be censoring you... or I'm thick.

 

[rest have risen above me]

Our Chief Fire Officer wants to change that to 2 full time fire appliances only. 2 fire engines to cover that area is insane.

To any firefighter:
How do you get to be Chief Fire Officer?

Do they come through the rank and file fighters?

 

[scallywag]

I am no fool, I just tell you how it was when I was in, which was a while ago I admit. I'm sorry if you do lose leave. This isn't a you and us topic. Someone came on and started a tread saying how we are all money grabbing lazy bas*ards, we've tried to explain. We give you examples, yet you refuse to understand them, and when you ask a question and its answered, you side step it or ignore what we've said.

I will not get into name calling. As I was told when I was in the mob, if the conditions are that sh*t and you hate it, buy yourself out. Its the same with us, we have the choice to leave, but we all love the job, but we are not going to stand for cuts that will endanger life, and cuts to our conditions of service.