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Trade Group 1 Pay Rise

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muttywhitedog said:
Fortunately, your opinion doesnt count, and it was someone whose job it is to fully understand these type of things that undertook the review, not a handful of disgruntled technicians who still think the money paid to TG17 NCOs is coming directly from their pockets.

No offence, but I'm sure someone will still take umbridge.
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Personal attacks aren't called for. I know that the pay rise does not come out of my pocket as you so put it. Why do you assume i'm(or many others) disgruntled.

Based on the detail listed on the link provided it DOES NOT justify raising JNCOand above TG17 to the higher payband, it was an objective observation based on the information presented..

A TG17 person does not have the same responsibility/problem solving/accountability or know-how as an aircraft technician so get over yourself. Perhaps you might want to take a leaf out of Tommo9999 and KingGuin's book and make sensible and balanced statements not just try to **** people off for the sake of it.
 
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There are many people on here with differing views about this subject, unfortunately there are those like Tommo and Kingquin who have a balanced reasonable attitude towards it and others who are blatantly rubbing our noses in it. They have no idea what we do in order to keep aircraft flying and if we didn't make the massive effort we did, over and above our duties they would be the first to complain.
 
Don't be too hard on MWD, he sees first hand the efforts we techies go through to get the crates in the air every day, I just think his post came across the wrong way (to be fair he generally makes balanced and well thought out posts).

I'm annoyed that technicians seems to be the poor mans trade in the RAF at the moment, as long as the drivers, cooks and admin staff are happy, the big cheeses' seem to be okay. As I often allude to, Trenchard said the foundations of the RAF should be flying and engineering.

However, I worked in HR/admin (whatever you want to call it) for three years before joining up, and I can assure you it's a vital yet thankless task. I think its good for the shineys that there is now more of a pay incentive to continue in the trade.

Should technicians be paid more? Of course, reflecting the responsibility of everyone from WO Eng to the LAC AMM on the line, but unfortunately, the crap RAF pay system does not currently allow it!

We should be targeting our vitriol on the decision makers and bean counters, not the admin guys.
 
MontyPlumbs said:
Don't be too hard on MWD, he sees first hand the efforts we techies go through to get the crates in the air every day, I just think his post came across the wrong way (to be fair he generally makes balanced and well thought out posts).

I'm annoyed that technicians seems to be the poor mans trade in the RAF at the moment, as long as the drivers, cooks and admin staff are happy, the big cheeses' seem to be okay. As I often allude to, Trenchard said the foundations of the RAF should be flying and engineering.

However, I worked in HR/admin (whatever you want to call it) for three years before joining up, and I can assure you it's a vital yet thankless task. I think its good for the shineys that there is now more of a pay incentive to continue in the trade.

Should technicians be paid more? Of course, reflecting the responsibility of everyone from WO Eng to the LAC AMM on the line, but unfortunately, the crap RAF pay system does not currently allow it!

We should be targeting our vitriol on the decision makers and bean counters, not the admin guys.
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Yes you are right about the direction of the vitriol and that is where it is directed believe me and i do appreciate the admin work carried out by the majority(unfortunately there are the bad apples that ruin it for the rest).

But as for MWDs comments, he has posted many an inflammatory comment and made personal attacks in his posts specifically related to the TG17 upbanding and associated bitching about it.

All i posted was a fair and informed opinion based on the information regarding the HAY method. And he resorted to a personal attack.
 
CodeMonkey said:
Personal attacks aren't called for. I know that the pay rise does not come out of my pocket as you so put it. Why do you assume i'm(or many others) disgruntled.

Based on the detail listed on the link provided it DOES NOT justify raising JNCOand above TG17 to the higher payband, it was an objective observation based on the information presented..

A TG17 person does not have the same responsibility/problem solving/accountability or know-how as an aircraft technician so get over yourself. Perhaps you might want to take a leaf out of Tommo9999 and KingGuin's book and make sensible and balanced statements not just try to **** people off for the sake of it.
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Try going back a few pages on this thread and check out the abuse the clerks got.

I tried offering a balanced view, but still got shouted down.

Facts are:

1. My pay scale is nothing to do with you.
2. Your pay is nothing to do with me, unless I happen to administer you, then you being paid correctly and on time is everything to do with me.
3. There's nothing you or I can do to affect the basic amount in (1) or (2).
4. We are all on the same fcking side FFS. I may well need you to ensure my Tristar gets me from a to b on the correct day and time. You definately need me to make sure your salary goes into your correct bank account on the correct day.

So lets both concentrate on what we are both good at and get paid to do. Is that balance enough?
 
muttywhitedog said:
Try going back a few pages on this thread and check out the abuse the clerks got.

I tried offering a balanced view, but still got shouted down.

Facts are:

1. My pay scale is nothing to do with you.
2. Your pay is nothing to do with me, unless I happen to administer you, then you being paid correctly and on time is everything to do with me.
3. There's nothing you or I can do to affect the basic amount in (1) or (2).
4. We are all on the same fcking side FFS. I may well need you to ensure my Tristar gets me from a to b on the correct day and time. You definately need me to make sure your salary goes into your correct bank account on the correct day.

So lets both concentrate on what we are both good at and get paid to do. Is that balance enough?
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My point is did I cast abuse? I made a balanced comment based on what i had read regarding the HAY method and you got personal.

As for points 1 to 3 yeas i agree with you.
Point 4 regarding your responsibility to make sure my pay goes into the bank on the correct day please see my PM as i feel that is outside the scope of the thread.
 
CodeMonkey said:
My point is did I cast abuse? I made a balanced comment based on what i had read regarding the HAY method and you got personal.

As for points 1 to 3 yeas i agree with you.
Point 4 regarding your responsibility to make sure my pay goes into the bank on the correct day please see my PM as i feel that is outside the scope of the thread.
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As far as I know, there are TG17 still working at the JPAC on pay and allowance-related issues, TG17 helped in the implementation of JPA, and TG17 have always been at the nerve end of where the pay run is sent. If that is not the case, then I withdraw the comment about the correct date.

It wasnt a personal attack on you stating that your view over mine and the rest of TG17's pay scale is irrelevent. Frankly, I dont (and never have done) give a gnats chaff what pay spine you are on, nor should you give a toss about mine. Sorry if that hurts you, but frankly you should be busy fixing aircraft rather than fretting about what I get paid.

By all means campaign for higher pay for TG1 (and I'll bloody well support you), but not at the expense of your colleagues.
 
3wheeledtechie said:
Why not campaign for less RAF officers, hence leaving more in the budget to justifiably reward aircraft engineers?

Lobs grenade and waits
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That's a good one, addressing the imbalance would cut the wage bill but we would never see it. It would be took back by the treasury.
 
Well i dont see many admin types about now after JPA came in i thought they got rid of them all and replaced them with civvies. I dont see the admin people doing much these days in the RAF ? maybe i not seeing the bigger picture but they were replaced by a computer, now after all this they are given a higher pay bracket , call me cynical but what have they done to earn it ?
I cant phone admin with my problems are there is not a blue suit on the unit that we are allowed to call unless its to charge somebody.
 
Anymore trade bashing and this thread goes the way of the rest of them....and will be shut. It's getting boring.
 
Sospan said:
Right then without trade bashing can somebody with a good knowledge of TG17 SNCO duties please give a rating from 0-10 for the following attributes as declared by vinnyvx2

1. Know – How

The level of knowledge, skill and experience (gained through job experience, education and training), which are required to perform the job successfully. This is commensurate with the scale and complexity of the job outcomes (accountability).

2. Problem Solving

The complexity of thinking required, both in the type of problems come across and the extent to which the jobholder has precedent and/or assistance in solving them (applying their Know – How).

3. Accountability

The impact the job has on the organization (i.e. the end result) and the extent to which the jobholder acts autonomously in achieving this.
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Sospan,
By lifting only part of the link I think it lost something, so in the interest of balance it thought I'd paste the the rest of it , just to give the full picture. Unfortunately Hay Job evaluation is much more complicated that this short piece in the link portrays. Normally 3-4 individuals sit down and they each separately assess each trade/rank and come up with an average score which translates into a pay band. Oh and just to make it clear TG17 aren't involved in the prcoess, in fact JSJET stands for Joint Service Job Evaluation Team, so it was a tri-service decision.

I won't trade bash, however the decision been made by your superiors, you are going to have live with it.

"The three elements are broken down further into sub-elements:
Know-How
  • Depth & Range of Know-How
  • Planning & Organizing
  • Communicating & Influencing ('Human Relations Skills)
Problem Solving
  • Thinking Environment
  • Thinking Challenge
Accountability
  • Freedom to Act
  • Nature of Impact
  • Area of Impact (Magnitude)
For each of the elements, there are a number of levels from which the panel selects the most appropriate. The outcome of the evaluation shows the total size of the job, which can then be placed in order with other roles within the organization."
 
vinnyvx2 said:
Sospan,
By lifting only part of the link I think it lost something, so in the interest of balance it thought I'd paste the the rest of it
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By pasting the rest of the link you have made it even more bewildering as to why the decision that was made has been made. Justification I asked for not more criteria.
 
Sospan said:
By pasting the rest of the link you have made it even more bewildering as to why the decision that was made has been made. Justification I asked for not more criteria.
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In that case put in an FOI request asking for a copy of all the paperwork relating to the decision, then you can post it here. You'll get it straight from the horses mouth then. I doubt its classified.
 
vinnyvx2 said:
In that case put in an FOI request asking for a copy of all the paperwork relating to the decision, then you can post it here. You'll get it straight from the horses mouth then. I doubt its classified.
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That sounds like a good idea, if I was bitter an twisted enough, I would give it a wirl. :PDT_Xtremez_40:
 
Back On Topic!

Back On Topic!

Right back to the question of pay rise...
AVM was here at lunch to speak to the Sgt Mess. The Techie side of the RAF will be getting pay increases but after the pay bands have been smoothed out. JPA can't cope with too many structures so as I heard it, most trades will end up leveling out and some (inc TG1) will get an increase. This won't be fully implemented for another 4 years tho or until other pay issues have settled!!!
 
billy bollox said:
This won't be fully implemented for another 4 years tho or until other pay issues have settled!!!
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Well thats very convenient for them isn't it.

I take it the egg flippers will also get the raise or they'll threaten to spunk in the beans.....oh no I forgot they already do that don't they...all part of the singlies protein for the day.

Crack on.....................:PDT_Xtremez_09:
 
Tashy_Man said:
I take it the egg flippers will also get the raise or they'll threaten to spunk in the beans.....oh no I forgot they already do that don't they...all part of the singlies protein for the day.
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I'm happy to be corrected, but I was of the understanding that the Cpls(and above?) are on the Higher pay band???
 
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