AIP mispayment

[SORRY CJ]

AIP - Advanced Increment of Pay.... get a (qualifying !) qualification and go up a pay level.

An incentive to self improvement and increased worth to the RAF.

G

No problems there then.....

1 Get qualified.....Tick
2 Submit paperwork.....Tick
3 Paperwork checked...... Tick
4 Paperwork checked by TS.....Tick
5 AIP Authorized......Tick
6 Enjoy some increase in pay.....Tick
7 Have the buffoons claw it back after many years because now its deemed to be wrong thus pi$$ing loads of bods off.......and Tick.

Mr SCJ

 

[SORRY CJ]

AIPs only came in after Pay 2000, before that there was no such thing as an increment to advance, all people of the same rank and trade were paid the same. There was an additional payment based on how long you has been in, (in the RAF, not in rank) but that could not be advanced or skipped.

I think you may be getting confused between the 2 because there is absolutely no way you had an AIP approved 18 years before 2004, because they did not exist then.

Yer I realised this I did the qualification in 90's my bad, think I put them in before 04 though.

Mr SCJ

 

[The Bishop]

And as i'm in soapbox mode at the moment, my ever so helpful Admin SNCO is preaching the party line of, the JSP Regs are strict and have to abided by, no question....(when it comes to recovery)......but it appears that the JSP Regs are not so important when someone decides to ignore or misunderstand them and cause a monumental screw up to 1000's of servicemen and women....

The more interesting thing for the civvy lawyers: If it were one or two Adminers getting the decisions wrong, maybe it could be forgiven or incompetence, as this seems to be across the board, at every unit in all three services....does anyone question the JSP or possibly how it is interpreted?

The MOD need to take this one on the chin.......

Again, the barrack room lawyer in me is screaming of loop holes to be exploited!

 

[woody]

Mate,

Maybe go after the lack of training to the persons authorising the AIP!

 

[The Bishop]

Mate,

Maybe go after the lack of training to the persons authorising the AIP!

Another very good and valid angle to approach from!! Thanks.

 

[MakkaPakka1]

Mate,

Maybe go after the lack of training to the persons authorising the AIP!

Isn't it common for psf's to close 3 afternoons a week for training? What are they supposed to have learnt!

Sent from my ST25i using Tapatalk 2

 

[woody]

How to audit claims and cover their tracks!

I bet the shredders are getting a caning in PSF at the moment!

 

[Shortie]

How will it work claiming back the extra income tax paid on your overpaid income? Should be interesting to see!

 

[Grymreaper]

This is the first AIP related thread i came across (More because it was top of the forum)

I am on a ISTAR base in the east midlands and I have been pinged by the AIP audit.

I remember using my NVQ given to me by Cosford as my AIP as I was advised by Cosford.

I also remember that I had to apply for the AIP with a GENAPP, Not an official form.

I got an email from an adminer containing a new form, saying please fill in this for retrospectively as we have lost your original application.

I challenged this and was told fill it in exactly as you would have in 2005 when you applied for it originally, down to signing it and dating it December 2005....

To me that smacks of fraud, but still i was told (in writing) to do this.

I cant see this ending well for me, but when it doesn't, I shall be seeking some legal advice.

 

[muttywhitedog]

One of the girls I audited received a payment of £5000+ in her Nov pay - her AIP had been incorrectly recorded on JPA and had never actually been paid.

That was an admin error too, but should we have just ignored it in the sake of fairness to those who now owe money due to an admin error?

 

[The Bishop]

How will it work claiming back the extra income tax paid on your overpaid income? Should be interesting to see!

Already asked that question......aparently YOU/WE have to get tax forms and work through a freakin minefield of calculations to submit to the tax office.........just another kick in the slats from our ever helpful HR dept!

 

[The Bishop]

Re the £5000 credit.........

That's the first good news bit i've heard from AIP if its true......another conundrum for the legal team?

Surely the individual should /would notice a level change if they submitted their paperwork???? I don't know of anyone that doesn't check their pay statements..............................

Smacks of spin to me to set the cat among the pigeons!!!

 

[Fu Fu Valve]

You'd be amazed..... i worked with a guy at Lossie who just threw his in a drawer and never checked them. After loads of badgering he opened one and i noticed his tax code was wrong and had been for years..... He ended up with a nice rebate from the tax man. His own fault for not checking his pay statements but i think it was lesson learned

 

[unruly1986]

Already asked that question......aparently YOU/WE have to get tax forms and work through a freakin minefield of calculations to submit to the tax office.........just another kick in the slats from our ever helpful HR dept!

Ive been told it will be worked out before the deb is out on JPA. So you won't lose out (apparently, but this came from an admirer!)

 

[ERT]

I think this thread is combining 2 problems, which may have been picked up from the AIP Audit. They seem to be AIP & Q-OPS issues.

AIP Non-Entitlement

The worst case debt for this should be £2301, which is Level 4-5 (SAC - High Band). This is the biggest jump between the RAF Pay scales that i can see.

If you submitted an AIP to jump to Level 5, then you were not entitled you would revert back to Level 4 and owe the annual increase. Its not an issue, as 12 months later from your Level 3-4 increment date, you would achieve the Level 4-5 move. Some people might have submitted an AIP later in the year, so only achieved 5-6 months pay rise, therefore £2301 is the max based on 2012 Pay Scales.

Q-OPS Entitlement

The thread seems to touch on the subject of the Q-OPS, which might be part of the issue. I know in some trades, the achievement of Q-OPS gave the entitlement to jump onto Level 5, then to submit an AIP onto Level 6. Win-Win.

Though, if you achieved Q-OPS before the minimum waiting time* (say 3 years) from trade training, this could see you jump onto Level 5 early (Level 6 with AIP). Which could be the source of some of the larger debts.

If it is true, the solution for this could be to withdraw the AIP and resubmit based on the true Q-OPS date therefore reducing the overall debt.

(*Is there a minimum waiting time from trade training before Q-OPS can be awarded?)

AIP's Audit - You should be audited against the version of JSP754 at the time the AIP was submitted. I did have a peek the other day at the JSP754, but for the RAF its been removed and added into some GAI.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Oh, I asure you its true. SAC MTD correctly submitted paperwork in Jun 06 at RAF Leeming. It was inputted on JPA as the code that had been used to migrate AIPs over on 1 Apr 06, rather than the new one. I would say this was an honest error by HR as there was no training for us prior to JPA, and it was utter chaos in th first 6 months as people just didnt know what to input. There were no manuals, no Business Process Guides, no SMEs to rely on. Imagine being sent to service or fly a Typhoon with no training, or maybe just a 20 minute online tutorial. Thats what it was like in those days. For the ones much further down the line, there is no excuse - either for HR or for the individuals who have asked for quals to be backdated 6 months for no reason other than they didnt bother applying as soon as they got their certificates.

That is what a lot of my recoveries are for. There are some who genuinely didnt receive their NVQ certificate for 10 months, and in those cases, PACC approval should have been sought to backdate. The responsibility for starting this process begins with the individual, and in 9/10 cases they just didnt bother, which is why some well-meaning, but very misguided HR bod has backdated it for 6 months, which was as far back as they could do on JPA. However, the 6 months backdating was there to allow personnel 6 months to obtain their certificate and present it. The rule has always been that if the qual was over six months, then it is the date of application, unless PACC approval is granted.

Just as this AIP Audit all kicked off, she approached me to ask what "AIP remaining = 2" meant on her pay chit, as she'd used one. The one she'd used was in the same month as her normal step, so there had been an increase, just not as big as it should have been. I immediately included it on the return, we submitted a PACC case for payment and monitored it very closely.

She has now been posted to another unit, but we have kept in touch, as I wanted to know how much extra it was she'd been underpaid since 2006. She called me on Thursday when her pay statement was online to say it was just over £5000.

 

[Bignick]

I have suddenly started playing catch-up on this subject ever since this thread appeared ..... thought it was a TG3/4 thing initially and for those still serving, but looks like I may be wrong on both counts.

I was a TG5 Gen tech GSE turned GTM and left as a Chf Tech in Feb this year. I used both my AIPs. The first was used as a Cpl pretty much as the system started and I presented an NVQ level 3 as evidence. Second one was used as a Sgt and IIRC I used a City & Guilds licentiateship and/or ILM Cert....Don't think it was my IMLC or TMT certs but I'm not certain of this.

Anyone know how my circumstances sit with this one? Can they actually take it from my pension??? I thought they would have to take me to court for that surely?

Obviously I can't get sight of the relevant JSP/GAI though I have googled it to see, without much success.

Any advice gratefully accepted

 

[Fu Fu Valve]

Good luck getting the tax back hope you have better luck than i did.

When they 'recovered' the money from me i was in Cyprus and the answer i got when i asked about it was 'thats your problem not ours, you'll have to contact the tax office in the UK'. Loads of phone calls, letters and emails later i never got anywhere with it.

 

[The Bishop]

I have been working on this issue since early October when i was told i was pinged. I spoke to the Air Minister for Parliament on his visit who told an audience, the decision on what to do was 'some months away' - I also wrote to the Ministry of State who replied that 'all overpayments causing debts will be reclaimed', at this point the contradiction set my alarm bells going and then, just two weeks later a debt appears on our payslips.

Now the debt is there, we have two pay periods to appeal it, then the money goes at 4 days pay per month, so if you rely on the 'some months away' comment, your screwed!

The AIP is applicable to ALL trades...Get your service complaint forms ready! JSP 831 Annex F

@ERT there is no maximum fella, mine is over 3K and my colleague is just shy of 4K, both date back to 2008. The first increment also affects all the others, so its notjust one they are taking back, it also includes all others normal jumps that occured after the AIP was awarded.

@muttythedog - Appreciate the honesty on lack of training, but it doesn't make it right and its not an excuse. If you don't know something, like every other trade, you don't do it or ask! A lot of peoplle will be seriously affected by this and will be put under enormous pressure. 4 days pay for me is my mortgage, someone elses mistake could cost me my house so don't talk about 'fairness'. I rely on other trades to do their job as no doubt you all rely on me to do mine. We function together. I have enough going on in front of me without having to check on my support behind me.

@bignick - My AIP was for 'Licentiateship ILM C&G' and it has been rejected - The JSP states Supervisory Management NVQ Level 4 or diploma - The ILM is exactly that but was rejected as i used my course work from my IMLC as evidence and so HR said it was service supplied - Which as you and i know it is not.

@fufuvalve & unruly1986 - My HR catergorically told me that tax reclaims were my responsibility and they do not do it. It has not been included in any debt calculations.

Guys, i can't be any more passionate about this, its serious and nobody in the higher levels of rank seem to give a feck, i have spoken to Sqn Ldr,Wg Co, Gp Cpt at and Air ship levels and none of them have been sympathetic, so don't hold your breath.

 

[techie_tubby]

The worst case debt for this should be £2301, which is Level 4-5 (SAC - High Band). This is the biggest jump between the RAF Pay scales that i can see.

In TG4, we achieve Q-Ops 18 Months after training assuming you have completed your NVQ. This bumps you up from Level 3 Lower to Level 5, then most people use at least 1 AIP for either your NVQ or at the time BTEC which pushed us up to level 6. When I put mine in I jumped from £17.5k to about £24 in the space of 24 hours. Some people also put in their other one using their other qualification, If they used their NVQ for the first one then they use their BTEC for the 2nd one or vice-versa and from what I can gather, please someone correct me if it's not correct but it's the BTEC that has caused the issue. If they are back dating to 2004 then there are going to be debts a lot higher then £2301. I've heard in excess of £6k being banged about from lads at Leeming.