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E E E E E E E E AR
Corporal
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I'd have thought that was something you'd do last, or alongside this action?
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9mm from the armoury and hostages in PSF ???
My interpretation is this. If they have removed the AIP because it was deemed invalid, what was previously a correct payment has now become an overpayment. Because of the action THEY have taken by removing. Stating that an overpayment has occurred is now valid however we object to it.
When mentioning overpayment in my objection I have asked them to note that until the point they removed the AIP and created a debt, what I was receiving was not an overpayment. It was THEIR action of removing the AIP which created an overpayment of money previously received as correct.
When mentioning overpayment in my objection I have asked them to note that until the point they removed the AIP and created a debt, what I was receiving was not an overpayment. It was THEIR action of removing the AIP which created an overpayment of money previously received as correct.
vauxhall1975
LAC
- 17
- 0
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Good answer !!
This from Wilkin Chapman :-
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[TD]
Background
Individual cases will vary but broadly the position is that in around 2012/2013 an investigation was embarked upon by the RAF into AIP. Some people were told about this; others were not provided with any information until more recently. Some people have had a figure added to their pay statements which was designated as “Gross Public Debt” (GPD); this is the alleged over-issue of the pay increases awarded under the various AIP processes. We understand that there was no notification of recovery at this time and that no money was deducted, but it continued to appear on pay statements.
On 2 February 2015, you were informed (in meetings and/or in writing) that the RAF/Secretary of State had decided to recover the alleged overpayment and that the recovery process would start on 30 April 2015. A number of people have been provided with their particular GPD figures and informed of the rate at which recovery will be made, in many cases, at the rate of 4 days’ gross pay per month (which complies with the restrictions imposed by JSP 754).
Action plan
If you wish to challenge the recovery of AIP from your pay, you must follow the internal procedures and meet the deadlines for doing so, i.e. the internal appeal procedures, referred to as Objection to Recovery Action (JSP 754 , Chapter 2, Section 6, Annex A (page 63 of the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Edition)) and also the service complaint procedure (JSP 831).
Objection to Recovery Action The time limit for submitting an ‘Objection’ is 6 weeks from the date of the notification, so from the 2 February as we understand it (but please check your specific date). That means that you must submit your ‘Objection’, using the correct form at Appendix 1 of Annex A, such that it is received within that 6 week period.
Following that, and upon receiving the outcome from the RAF of your first ‘Objection’, you must then submit a second appeal within 28 days of receipt of that notification.
Please note that on page two of the ‘Objection’ form under the section headed ‘Objection to Recovery’ there is a section which states: “I agree that an over-issue has occurred, but object to repayment. I request waiver of the recovery.” If you do not accept that an over-issue has occurred and feel your payment was properly awarded, then please be clear about this by either crossing through this section and/or stating in the box beneath it your position.
Service complaint You have 3 months from the act/issue complained of (possibly 2 February but check) within which to submit it.
Please be aware that these time limits are very strict and you should ensure you adhere to them. Even if the ‘Objection’ procedure has not been resolved within 3 months, you must submit the service complaint otherwise the RAF will have the opportunity to argue that it is out of time.
Court
If the internal procedures are not successful you cannot challenge the decision in the Employment Tribunal, because as service personnel, you are excluded from most employment law legislation.
Therefore to challenge the decision, a claim will have to be issued in the Court for an order that the RAF should be prevented from making deductions on the basis of promissory estoppel and/or that the deductions are prevented due to statutory limitation periods. By way of an overview:
Promissory Estoppel
In order for a claim of promissory estoppel to be successful it must be shown that:
- The RAF represented to you that the overpayments were yours;
- You have changed your position as a result of the overpayment – for example all or some of the money has been spent in good faith; and
- You are not responsible for the overpayment.
If you are able to satisfy this test then the RAF may be prevented from recovering the overpayment from you.
Limitation
The RAF may not be able to recover back any overpayments made beyond the last six years.
Barrister's Opinion
If you wish to pursue the Court option then we would suggest that we obtain specialist advice from a barrister on your behalf. If there is a group of you wishing to do this, we believe we could secure this advice at a relatively small cost to you, or possibly free.
Conclusion
If you would like assistance with the drafting of your grounds of appeal we can do that for you at a fixed fee of £150 (plus VAT).
We are also available to offer guidance to you through the process (appeal and/or service complaint).
Please contact us via this email address to discuss your individual requirements and our fees.
Yours faithfully
WILKIN CHAPMAN LLP
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Wilkin Chapman LLP
Email: aip@wilkinchapman.co.uk
Main Tel: 01522 512345
Website: www.wilkinchapman.co.uk
E E E E E E E E AR
Corporal
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Thanks for that gen, very useful.
Seems that what 90SU are telling people is contradicting what Wilkin Chapman are saying. 90SU are saying to carry out both your objections first, then start your service complaint. But if each objection has a 6 week window, that would just about time-out your opportunity to make a service complaint within 3 months. Seems a bit off.
Seems that what 90SU are telling people is contradicting what Wilkin Chapman are saying. 90SU are saying to carry out both your objections first, then start your service complaint. But if each objection has a 6 week window, that would just about time-out your opportunity to make a service complaint within 3 months. Seems a bit off.
Might want to get that advice in writing so if you can't then raise a SC you can use it as proof that you did everything you were told (oh hang on that sounds familiar doesn't it, being told something is correct by the RAF then finding outnthat apparently the experts got it wrong and you're the one at fault!?)
unruly1986
Sergeant
- 727
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Letters going out to those who have left...
- 7,140
- 113
- 641
That's a waste of stamps and envelope.
briggfairy
Sergeant
- 748
- 18
- 3
which will say what?, unless they plan to touch my pension i'll be filing it in location b1n.
if they do want to touch my pension i hope their prepared for the sh1tstorm a member of a union can send their way
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If you're a member they probably would, in the very least you'll get to use their legal advisors.
unruly1986
Sergeant
- 727
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Its pretty much the same letter that we received but with info on how to setup a standing order. The one I have seen is signed off by a colonel. I think they are going out as 'signed for' just for info.
briggfairy
Sergeant
- 748
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Having spoken to my union rep about this he will be bringing it up at the area union meeting this month, he confirmed that any veteran who is a member of the GMB will be entitled to support from the union and his personal view is that the recovery is at best on a questionable legal footing.
So far I haven't had a letter and I've been told not to accept it if one does arrive and to simply let the royal mail return it to sender.
So far I haven't had a letter and I've been told not to accept it if one does arrive and to simply let the royal mail return it to sender.
nickthebeer
LAC
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A quick question for those that have left and received a letter. Did it arrive as a signed for letter from Royal Mail? I possibly have one at my local sorting office as I was out that day.
Can anyone else confirm briggfairy advice of not accepting the letter?
Can anyone else confirm briggfairy advice of not accepting the letter?
When did you leave?
I left in Aug 12 with immediate pension, and I've heard nothing from pension people or the mob.
Mr SCJ
nickthebeer
LAC
- 32
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I left in April 2013 after 9 years although my last working day was 10 December 2012.
Fu Fu Valve
Sergeant
- 573
- 28
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See post 573 about tax.
The basic answer is it's your problem to claw back any tax or NI and you'll get sod all help from HR.
Been there, seen it, failed to do it
The basic answer is it's your problem to claw back any tax or NI and you'll get sod all help from HR.
Been there, seen it, failed to do it