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Aircraft licensing.

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Rikster,

I have been thinking about getting an A&P Licence for sometime now, as you say, another string to the bow.

In the good old days you could just turn up and take the exams, however, I was under the impression that the FAA had clamped down recently on who is eligible to sit the exams. I have heard that you need proof you are working on N registered aircraft which must be endorsed by the CAA. I am currently working on G (UK), C (Canadian), EI (Irish), EC (Spanish) and A6 (UAE) registered aircraft but none with an N prefix.

Do they still have exam centres in the UK? (Believe there used to be one at LHR and another at Farnborough where you could do the theory).

I hold a full UK CAA Part-66 B1 Licence with multiple Airbus and Boeing type ratings but I doubt this will qualify for any exemptions. I know A&P guys get nothing when trying to convert to Part-66.

Any thoughts?

Cheers DH
 
Dirty Harry said:
Rikster,

I have been thinking about getting an A&P Licence for sometime now, as you say, another string to the bow.

In the good old days you could just turn up and take the exams, however, I was under the impression that the FAA had clamped down recently on who is eligible to sit the exams. I have heard that you need proof you are working on N registered aircraft which must be endorsed by the CAA. I am currently working on G (UK), C (Canadian), EI (Irish), EC (Spanish) and A6 (UAE) registered aircraft but none with an N prefix.

Do they still have exam centres in the UK? (Believe there used to be one at LHR and another at Farnborough where you could do the theory).

I hold a full UK CAA Part-66 B1 Licence with multiple Airbus and Boeing type ratings but I doubt this will qualify for any exemptions. I know A&P guys get nothing when trying to convert to Part-66.

Any thoughts?

Cheers DH
Click to expand...

They were clamping down on NON aircraft engineers trying to blag an A+P.
I am not aware of exam centres in LHR or farnborough The FAA have an office over here but not for exams (as far as I know) and in any case you are better off doing it all together as they certaintly don't have practical tests over here.

As for the "N" registered it just depends on the guy who interviews you, a mate of mine has recently done his A+P and he simply said he was applying for a job with an American Airline flying into the UK!
Another mate did the "contracting on "N" reg's" blag.

Its like everything else in this game, you don't actually know the truth until you try to get something done.
 
Rikster said:
They were clamping down on NON aircraft engineers trying to blag an A+P.
I am not aware of exam centres in LHR or farnborough The FAA have an office over here but not for exams (as far as I know) and in any case you are better off doing it all together as they certaintly don't have practical tests over here.

As for the "N" registered it just depends on the guy who interviews you, a mate of mine has recently done his A+P and he simply said he was applying for a job with an American Airline flying into the UK!
Another mate did the "contracting on "N" reg's" blag.

Its like everything else in this game, you don't actually know the truth until you try to get something done.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

I did work on some clapped out N registered B757 once (Ghana International I think?), diverted in due to an engine problem. A quick borescope revealed the HP compressor was completely shagged. How the hell that thing was still producing power I will never know, testament to RR and there ability to build solid motors I guess! A couple of hairy arsed A&P guys turned up, changed the motor and it was on it's way!

Could always use that as proof I suppose.
 
mightyhunter said:
GT, I had got info from them and I'm sure it says somewhere that if you're resident in England there's an entitlement to a form of bonus towards paying for the modules.
Click to expand...

Aye big man, I got the full entitlement as 'forces' are classed as England residents for the discount.:PDT_Xtremez_30:
 
Dirty Harry said:
In response to a number of PM’s I have received over the past couple of days regarding advice on Civil Aircraft Maintenance Licensing, CV's, Tools etc. I thought the following post might be of some use.

Introduction

First of all you really need to decide where you future lies, RAF or Civil Aviation. If you are serious about leaving you must be 100 percent committed. Formulate yourself an ‘escape plan’ and stick to it religiously. Make sacrifices where necessary to achieve your aims.

Start by having a look at www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=137 and click on the Engineering Licensing link.

Read everything there is to know about licensing and pay particular attention to the Engineers Licensing Guide Document (ELGD) which is downloadable. Start to familiarise yourself with the terminology, knowledge requirements, exam requirements, procedures and regulations.

Study Options

Start studying for your Part-66 B1 or B2 licence ASAP, do not delay. There are plenty of training providers out there offering short modular courses or distant learning packages. These include:

www.licencebypost.com
www.barry.ac.uk
www.lrtt.co.uk
www.newcastleaviation.co.uk
www.airservicetraining.co.uk
www.oxfordaviation.net
www.totaltrainingsupport.com
www.part66now.com

A good number of these providers are ELC registered so you will be able to offset some of the cost of courses, books, training notes etc. I used my yearly education allowance to pay for the CAA exams and even managed to con them into paying motor mileage by submitting a F1771. That may still be possible, I don’t know? The bottom line is screw the mob for whatever you can get, make them pay for your future outside.

Studying for and successfully obtaining a licence is not easy. Do not assume your RAF training will suffice because it won't. It takes discipline and many hours ‘burning the midnight oil’ just to pass the exams. Short modular courses can make life easier but they are expensive and require you to attend full-time which will mean using up leave.

Draw up a plan in the order that you want to do the modules. Whilst no modules are easy, from personnel experience I’d advise you to start with some of the smaller subjects such as Maths and Physics. This will ease you back into a learning frame of mind and give you some idea of the exam format used by the CAA.

Don’t wait until you are ready to take the exam before you book it. Waiting times can be up to 4 months so chances are you’d have forgotten everything by the time you come to sit it. With this in mind it is worthwhile block booking exams, say one (possibly two) every 2-3 months. This will give you sufficient time to prepare. Turn up unprepared and you will fail miserably so having already paid for the exam, it will force you to study. Nobody likes throwing money down the drain.

Experience

When you eventually leave the RAF you will have to work as an unlicensed mechanic on the tools until you’ve accrued sufficient civil aircraft maintenance experience to satisfy the CAA. This is currently 1 year minimum for ex military but may be longer dependent on your circumstances and background. If you’ve been working in bays for years it is deemed off aircraft and the experience requirement can increase considerably.

Start compiling a comprehensive log book of your military experience. I used the F7502 PDR, it may still be in use? Document every job no matter how trivial. Get it authenticated by an Engineering Officer prior to leaving. The CAA want proof of your military experience for licence issue, simply stating I was on TriStar's or Tornado’s for x amount of years is not enough.

The first thing that immediately becomes apparent after making the transition to Civil Aviation is how much you ‘don’t know’ about fixing aeroplanes. There is nobody around to show you the ropes out here in the real world. You are expected to get on with any job with minimal supervision. The learning curve is vertical. X amount of years in the mob means jack **** and any status or responsibility once held becomes irrelevant overnight. You will have to start all over again, get qualified and prove your worth.

There is no such thing as single trades in Civil Aviation. You are either B1 (Airframe, Engine, Electrics & limited Avionics) or B2 (Avionics). Over recent years the RAF has started to come inline with the likes of multi-skilling, however, some 6 week mickey mouse course at Cosford does not make you a competent Dual Trade Technician. Get as much experience of the other trades as possible before you leave.

CV's

With regards to CV’s, try to avoid the most common mistake service personnel make when writing one - excessive use of military jargon. A/F’s, T/R’s, Primary Star, I/C Tea-Bar, LITS, Lean etc. means sod all to civilian employers. For NCO/SNCO's a couple of brief statements about your supervisory and management capabilities/responsibilities will suffice. The interview will be the time and place to expand on this if and when you are asked. Remember, you will be applying for a Mechanic's vacancy initially so tailor your CV accordingly. Employers want to know that you can change components, do routine servicing, diagnose and rectify faults, carry out functional checks, ground run engines etc. Try and kept it short, two pages maximum. List your training and qualifications that are relevant such as TriStar Q course, NVQ Level 3 in Aircraft Maintenance or EASA Part-66 modules. Leave out the Sea Survival, Introduction to Lean, Basic Fire-Fighting and all the other irrelevant military related crap.

Resettlement and Terminal Leave

Use your resettlement time wisely. If you are planning on making the transition to Civil Aviation why waste it on Fork Lift, Plumbing or Computer courses. Use it to do a short modular course for a difficult subject such as Air Legislation for example. Better still, save up all your leave and use the resettlement and terminal leave as a form of work placement. I did exactly that and it allowed me to start employment 9 weeks early. I got two wages for a couple of months which covered the costs of my house move.

Tools

You will require your own tools out here. Start collecting now and buy the best that you can afford because they will get used and abused with regularity. EBay is a good place to start. Snap On spanners, ratchets and sockets can be found going cheap. Do not dismiss the Halfords Professional range either, some of their stuff is excellent quality and comes with a lifetime guarantee. For any folk that go on detachment to the US have a look in Sears www.sears.com They sell Craftsman hand tools that are Snap On quality for a third of the price. If anybody requires a recommended list of tools to buy send me a PM.

And finally....

It’s a good world out here and there are plenty of opportunities for folk with the right attitude and a bit of get up and go.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...


All good stuff...BUT....don't forget the Yank's A&P.

80% of the a/c flying today are US registered. Most of the Bods I worked with at LHR were A&P'd. Far far easier to get, you get tonnes of exemptions from the RAF training and that leaves mainly "Tick the box" exams to pass.

Many think of it a less significant licence than CAA, but on my shift at LHR we were all on the same pay regardless !!
 
Inevertouchedit said:
All good stuff...BUT....don't forget the Yank's A&P.

80% of the a/c flying today are US registered. Most of the Bods I worked with at LHR were A&P'd. Far far easier to get, you get tonnes of exemptions from the RAF training and that leaves mainly "Tick the box" exams to pass.

Many think of it a less significant licence than CAA, but on my shift at LHR we were all on the same pay regardless !!
Click to expand...

80% may well be N-registered but the majority of these are operated across the pond. Employment opportunities in the UK and Europe for A&P licensed guys are very limited compared to those for Part-66 licence holders.

The FAA A&P licence is considered a less significant licence by many for the exact reasons mentioned in your posts (easier to get, guaranteed pass etc.) That said, it can attract reasonable rates of pay if you can find suitable employment to put it to good use.
 
Dirty Harry said:
80% may well be N-registered but the majority of these are operated across the pond. Employment opportunities in the UK and Europe for A&P licensed guys are very limited compared to those for Part-66 licence holders.

The FAA A&P licence is considered a less significant licence by many for the exact reasons mentioned in your posts (easier to get, guaranteed pass etc.) That said, it can attract reasonable rates of pay if you can find suitable employment to put it to good use.
Click to expand...


At the moment with the new open skies agreement more and more N reg jets are coming this way!
We had a LOT of trouble finding enough A+P's to work at LHR!
New airlines flying into LHR this month/or close to it!
Continental.
Delta.
NWA.
US Airways.

totals between 10 and 20 flights a day!
American have pulled out of LGW and transferred flights to LHR, and as soon as T5 settles down you can bet your bottom $ the Continental,NWA,Delta and US will be trying to get out of LGW and transfer ALL their flights to LHR!

So basically if you are in the UK right now and have an A+P you have a job!

The A+P may be considered "less significant" but I'm afraid that's a snob thing!
And personally I couldn't give a monkeys.........as I've said before this year I can give you well over 47,000 reasons why I don't give a monkeys. (thats before overtime)
 
Last edited:
Rikster said:
The A+P may be considered "less significant" but I'm afraid that's a snob thing! And personally I couldn't give a monkeys.........as I've said before this year I can give you well over 47,000 reasons why I don't give a monkeys. (thats before overtime)
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more mate. As said in my previous post, it is considered inferior by many others but I never implied it was. At the end of the day both licenses have equal importance and your A&P attracts an almost identical salary to my CAA issued Part-66.

When I first decided to get licensed I considered both options. I chose the CAA route because I personally believed this would be my best option for securing long term employment outside of the RAF. Secondly I felt it offered a greater deal of flexibility because the Part-66 licence will get you employment at just about every airport throughout the UK and Europe. Fortunately my hard work and dedication over the last 5 or so years has paid dividends and I am now in a position whereby my services/qualifications are in very high demand.

I can see first hand the continual wind down from US carriers at LGW and it won’t be long before the majority of them pull the plug. That’ll be even more slots for those orange A320’s and blue B737’s (two well known budget carriers), there is enough of those bloody things down here already!!
 
Dirty Harry said:
I can see first hand the continual wind down from US carriers at LGW and it won’t be long before the majority of them pull the plug. That’ll be even more slots for those orange A320’s and blue B737’s (two well known budget carriers), there is enough of those bloody things down here already!!
Click to expand...

You got to love it down there at the seaside, all those bucket and spaders!
I must admit LGW is a much nicer airport to work, at LHR the wind doesn't blow it SUCKS
 
Just a quick one, is it true as a lae do you have to buy your own tools?

If so what do you do tool control? ta
 
Yes, you have to buy your own set of basic hand tools. The company is responsible for any specialist tooling specific to aircraft types.

It is the individuals personal responsibility for control of their own tooling. Some guys I used to work with in the hangar (particularly ex forces) employed the foam and cut-out principle so they could easily account for any missing tools. Others just used to throw everything in the bottom of a box. You may laugh, but I've seen contractors turn up with Adsa carrier bags full of cheap tools from the local market!

Some companies have a dedicated tool store where the issue of specialist tooling is controlled, others just have a free for all and it is up to you to put things back when you’ve finished using them.
 
When you have spent a small fortune on them, you tend to look after them. The majority of guys are pretty switched on and Tool control takes care of it self. Well it does where i work. Obviously not everyone or everywhere is the same, as I'm sure some one will point out.

Plenty of tools on the internet, some good deals can be found on ebay. Get buying now if your thinking of banging out and converting to civvy.
 
duffman said:
isn't that a bit dodgy people pitching up with their own tools and no control?
Click to expand...


If the companies QA guy is doing his job properly, they should be etched with your name and licence number on them. So if one is "found" they know who left it there. Whether that is true in practice however is another story.
 
Ghandi's Flip-Flop said:
If the companies QA guy is doing his job properly, they should be etched with your name and licence number on them. So if one is "found" they know who left it there. Whether that is true in practice however is another story.
Click to expand...

It's all right finding an etched tool but is there any tool control? The last few posts suggest not, surely there is some control over contractors tools?:PDT_Xtremez_17:
 
The way the CAA do things. There is no "over" control like as stated in the JAP, but remember that tools going flying and found will be investigated as a criminal investigation if the incident leads to injury or death.

Our tool control proceedures ain't exactly watertight either, due to the good old human factors..
 
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