Firefighters' strike - Nov 5th

Impeccable timing by the FBU.

BBC Report
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SPICE WEED

 

[firestorm]

I know. I'm a northener.DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[LondonLady]

i finks the londun firemen ez good i az had 5 chipan fires over the yeers and they az always been nice to me they cant ave that much money cos when they take ther coats of they ave only got vesTs ful of oles and cant evin aford shirtZ

 

[The Masked Geek]

THE MASKED Geek (civility restored!)
you did read me wrong but since my posts have (through the introduction of sarcasm) been deemed ambiguous previously I shall endevour to behave until the MODs introduce a "p*ss taking/sarcasm" emoticion.

Then please accept my apology.

Most of us go with the DT_Xtremez_14: for sarcasm. DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[firestorm]

For example i still get double time for Sundays if i am required to work them but people on newer contracts only get time and a half.

Is this a mass attempt to even out firefighters contracts at what will inevitably be diminished protected rights?

If this is the case then the likes of the NHS would be ripe to follow.

You are right to be concerened about the possible outcome. The public sector can all be sacked and re-employed using this legislation.
I'm also glad you get overtime for weekend working. I don't, neither do I get a shift allowance but as I said , this isn't about pay.

 

[justintime129]

You are right to be concerened about the possible outcome. The public sector can all be sacked and re-employed using this legislation.
I'm also glad you get overtime for weekend working. I don't, neither do I get a shift allowance but as I said , this isn't about pay.

I can see where you are coming from with the shifts being the same for days and nights. Whereas before it would be hard to make the hours up if you where swapped from a night shift to a day shift, you would be looking to make up 6 hrs somewhere. Now there's no problem and that's the problem. Someones off sick run short on the nights. Do it the once and management think you can do it all the time.

 

[GD on Wheels]

So on that point how do they cope with sickness on nights as of now?
Surely the manning levels are such are what they need now to provide safe levels of cover. So the point is overtime done to make up said short fall, or do they run down on numbers as a norm? Or would overtime cover still need to be done? Even with less on duty as of a night surely that gap would still need to be covered?

 

[566]

I'm not sure what your point is here or even if you understand what the strike is about.
Its not about us wanting any more, its about us not wanting any less.
These proposals don't save a penny. And we too are taking the pay freeze on the chin, in fact Cllr Coleman has suggested we take an extra year freeze as well.

Of course I know what the strike is about, otherwise I would not be commenting!

My point is, I think it is rather pathetic to organise a strike on Bonfire night. Any time is bad for the fire service to go on strike. It is almost holding the city/country to randsom. If it goes ahead , organised events may have to be cancelled.

Accept the changes and you keep your jobs. Everything changes. A new Fireman joining would know no different and just get on with it. We have had changes in the forces world by amalgamating certain two trades into one, thus lowering promotion and increasing time away from home. Unfortunately we have had to accept it. We were told if we didn't accept it, then we would not get promoted and/or not signed on for further service. The forces are loosing thousands of people wether we like it or not.

 

[justintime129]

Accept the changes and you keep your jobs.

That's not how it works in civvy street , contrary to popular belief you can discuss things with your employer if you don't like what he's proposing. And you could even say no if he wants you to work extra hours.

 

[Johned]

It may be media sensationalism but it seems many fireman live quite a distance from their fire station. It is reported Denmark, Northern Ireland, Majorca, Southern Spain not to mention Portsmouth, Bournemouth et al.
How do you commute on their claimed low wages from these far distant places? Some even hold down second jobs as retained fireman in other districts. Is it only me and my suspicious mind but something seems not quite right somewhere?

 

[Allflapnofly]

Personally....and as far as I'm concerned....the firemen, can all go to blazes!

 

[duffman]

What adv does having more fireman on days do? Why do the LFA want more on days and less on nights?

 

[Smokinbarrels]

What adv does having more fireman on days do? Why do the LFA want more on days and less on nights?

I think you've answered that question. its so they can reduce nightime cover on fire stations.......in other words close fire stations at night!

 

[True Blue Jack]

I'll explain.
12's allow the equalisation of shifts instead of 2 days followed by 2 nights you can then work 3 days one night or 4 days no nights. This allows the reduction in nighttime cover as more people will be diverted onto day shifts covering shortfalls for training and doing community safety work.

Sorry Firestorm, but I can't see any evidence on either the LFB or FBU websites to say that 'might' happen, never mind 'will'. What I can see is an acknowledgement by the LFB that they have a" legal duty to provide fire and rescue cover at all times" and that firefighters will "continue to work 2 days, 2 nights and have four days off". Going back as far as June, the FBU general secretary said “We know that the proposed 12-hours-on 12-hours-off shift patterns are a prelude to cutting nighttime fire cover” but I genuinely can't see why he thinks that.

 

[muttywhitedog]

I'm having the same difficulty as you on this one TBJ. If LFB are really planning to take workers off night shift to put them all on days, what roles are they going to fill, bearing in mind that the overall manning figure will not change?

I was under the impression that a watch stuck together and was only tinkered with when manning went below critical level due to sickness & courses. There will always be more day workers, but surely its easier to take a day worker off going round schools duties to cover a shift shortage than the other way round.

When it comes down to emergency cover or this and his fire truck at the local village fete, nobody would opt for the latter - not even the barmiest of employers! (apart from the children I suppose!!)

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

....not even the barmiest of employers....

Would that be that the barmiest of employers that...
....are giving votes to prisoners
....are joining the French in a defence alliance
....entered two wars without a SDR
....gave the banks money with no pay back clauses
....etc etc etc
....the list is literally endless

Come on get real. This won`t affect the ruling classes one iota, despite us `all being in this together`. The only ones to be affected will be the workers and the average man in the street.

 

[firestorm]

So on that point how do they cope with sickness on nights as of now?
Surely the manning levels are such are what they need now to provide safe levels of cover. So the point is overtime done to make up said short fall, or do they run down on numbers as a norm? Or would overtime cover still need to be done? Even with less on duty as of a night surely that gap would still need to be covered?

After the 2003 strike the FBU accepted the need for pre arranged overtime, though the deal struck was that overtime was not to be used to reduce establishment levels. Since then the management have routinely used it to reduce establishment levels and now we're well under establishment with staff shortages and lack of officers. This has led to many fire stations closing temporalily since we've been working to contract. My own station was closed for days last week, when I went off duty yesterday morning at 10.00 the station closed again until 18.00.

 

[firestorm]

Of course I know what the strike is about, otherwise I would not be commenting!

My point is, I think it is rather pathetic to organise a strike on Bonfire night. Any time is bad for the fire service to go on strike. It is almost holding the city/country to randsom. If it goes ahead , organised events may have to be cancelled.

Accept the changes and you keep your jobs. Everything changes. A new Fireman joining would know no different and just get on with it. We have had changes in the forces world by amalgamating certain two trades into one, thus lowering promotion and increasing time away from home. Unfortunately we have had to accept it. We were told if we didn't accept it, then we would not get promoted and/or not signed on for further service. The forces are loosing thousands of people wether we like it or not.

The scheduling of the strikes is linked to the sacking notices. They start sacking us all and putting us on new contracts (that have worse conditions) in 2 weeks time.
In civvy street, contracts have to be negotiated, not imposed.

 

[firestorm]

It may be media sensationalism but it seems many fireman live quite a distance from their fire station. It is reported Denmark, Northern Ireland, Majorca, Southern Spain not to mention Portsmouth, Bournemouth et al.
How do you commute on their claimed low wages from these far distant places? Some even hold down second jobs as retained fireman in other districts. Is it only me and my suspicious mind but something seems not quite right somewhere?

Not quite right in what way?
Commuting into London is common place, millions of people come into London everyday from all over the UK as London is very expensive (and not particulary nice to live in!) many companies provide London allowance for this reason.

1 firefighter lives in Denmark out of 6000. Now if that firefighter turns up for duty on time, ever time, I fail to see what the issue is.
Again you mention wages. This isn't about wages. Though with my "rockstar wages" I took home just over £2000 last month, I'm a watch manager with 18 years service.
So what if people hold down second jobs? If people feel the need to suppliment their income after a 48 hour shift then whats the problem with that? Its taking their professional and using them to benefit another community as well as themselves.

 

[firestorm]

Sorry Firestorm, but I can't see any evidence on either the LFB or FBU websites to say that 'might' happen, never mind 'will'. What I can see is an acknowledgement by the LFB that they have a" legal duty to provide fire and rescue cover at all times" and that firefighters will "continue to work 2 days, 2 nights and have four days off". Going back as far as June, the FBU general secretary said “We know that the proposed 12-hours-on 12-hours-off shift patterns are a prelude to cutting nighttime fire cover” but I genuinely can't see why he thinks that.

I think that because I've seen the proposal leaked from our corporate management board. This was one of several proposals which included further reduction in ridership levels, forced temporary promotion pooling of staff resources so you don't have a base station.
I will try to find the document if you like?

 

[firestorm]

I'm having the same difficulty as you on this one TBJ. If LFB are really planning to take workers off night shift to put them all on days, what roles are they going to fill, bearing in mind that the overall manning figure will not change?

I was under the impression that a watch stuck together and was only tinkered with when manning went below critical level due to sickness & courses. There will always be more day workers, but surely its easier to take a day worker off going round schools duties to cover a shift shortage than the other way round.

When it comes down to emergency cover or this and his fire truck at the local village fete, nobody would opt for the latter - not even the barmiest of employers! (apart from the children I suppose!!)

People moved onto days will be removed from firefighting duties and be enagaged on communiity work, such as youth offender engagement, juvenile firesetters, home visits, public talks etc as well as checking inspecting hydrants and further training activities.
You are right about watched sticking together, but the proposal leaked want to dismantle the watch system in favour of a pool system, similar to that being used in GMC. Effectively, you can turn up for duty and work with peope you've never met before.