Firefighters' strike - Nov 5th

Impeccable timing by the FBU.

BBC Report
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SPICE WEED

 

[The Masked Geek]

The new hours would have no impact at all, in fact 12's give the opportunity to work more.

So why strike?

If the only change is a shuffle in working hours, then you really have no complaint.

So, educate us, what is it really about?

 

[firestorm]

How is it worse though? Having a wee read in the news I noticed the amount of time worked etc isn't changing and the days on/off are still the same it's just the fact that you are going from at 15/9 hour shift to 12/12. Am I completely missing the point? Apologies if I am

No need to aplogise at all as its awide subject. The shifts are not the problem per se, in fact the FBU have tabled 2 alternative shifts that deliver increased productivity and reduce costs, but these were dismissed instantly by the LFB. The issue is the fact the the LFB are saying, "here's the new shift, sign the new contract or be sacked."
What kind of an employer bullies its workforce and threatenens them with the sack to gets its own way?

 

[The Masked Geek]

What kind of an employer bullies its workforce and threatenens them with the sack to gets its own way?

The sort of employer that is bullied in return by the union. (am I the only one who can see the irony here?)


They want their plan, you want yours. Only one will win and tbh, the paymaster should be given a greater voice.



If they wanted you to work more for less, then I could understand the argument.

 

[firestorm]

Well, they said last night that consulations on this shift change have been ongoing for 2 years nationally, and its just the London FB that have declined to agree to anything and that they are not even turning up to the arbitration hearings (this wasn't denied BTW).

Really, from the perspective of the man in the street and pretty much everyone in the private sector, this does sound very much like a bout of collective petulance with little or nothing of substance to mitigate the FB Union claims.

Thats not true at all. The FBU negoiates nationally on behalf of its members and has agreed shift changes in many of the other brigades across the country. The employers in London have come to the table with a proposal and then threatened to sack us if we don't agree to it. Only London management have taken this line, the FBU has already agreed changes with all other brigades.

 

[firestorm]

So why strike?

If the only change is a shuffle in working hours, then you really have no complaint.

So, educate us, what is it really about?

Because we don't want to have our contracts terminated.

Not sure if you heard the radio last night but the FBU offered to suspend the strikes if the LFB lifted the sacking notices and return to talks. Cllr Coleman refused outright.

The new contracts they want us to sign have a host of changes that are worse than the conditions we're already on.

We're not averse to changing shift hours, as I said earlier we've even proposed 2 alternative ones that increase productivity and save money, but the LFB weren't interested.
12 hour shifts will lead to the removal of fire engines at night, and the closing of fire stations. The time when most fire deaths and injuries occur.

 

[firestorm]

The sort of employer that is bullied in return by the union. (am I the only one who can see the irony here?)


They want their plan, you want yours. Only one will win and tbh, the paymaster should be given a greater voice.



If they wanted you to work more for less, then I could understand the argument.

But, as with all things contractual they have to be negotiated with both sides compromising.

TMG, you don't know the half of it. The LFB is in meltdown. I stayed late last night to lock my station as there wasn't enough people to keep it open. Its been closed for most of the week. This pattern is the same across london. All London stations are supposed to be crewed 24/7
We have colleagues who are being docked 20% of their pay for refusing to do temporary promotion.
I have to order my people to stay on at the end of their shift to cover shortages. If I refuse to do so I will be docked 20%. I am told I can refuse to let peole go even if they have pressing domestic circumstances.
If I am deemed not to be co-operating in any order the brigade makes, even one they re-write into policy, I am also liable to a further 20% reduction.
I am well aware of bullying.

We are desperately short of cover in London. I managed an fire last week were I had to wait an age for my resources to arrive as there were so many fire engines unavailable. This wasn't a strike date. Delays like this cost lives and destroy people homes. The LFB is in a real mess becuse of the actions of management, not just the FBU.

 

[The Masked Geek]

We're not averse to changing shift hours, as I said earlier we've even proposed 2 alternative ones that increase productivity and save money, but the LFB weren't interested.
12 hour shifts will lead to the removal of fire engines at night, and the closing of fire stations. The time when most fire deaths and injuries occur.

What are your alternatives? Then we can at least judge for ourselves what is fair.


How can changing the shift pattern reduce the amount of hardware you have available? If I change my working hours, three PCs don't vanish. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[firestorm]

What are your alternatives? Then we can at least judge ourselves what is fair.


How can changing the shift pattern reduce the amount of hardware you have available? If I change my working hours, three PCs don't vanish. DT_Xtremez_14:

The alternative shift proposals were the same as the American firefighters work.
24 on 3 off and a variation on that. This increased the hours available for training and community work and reduced the amount of stanby movements (where we send staff to cover shortages in other stations) by 50%. This also reduced the amount of time fire engines were not available at shift change by 50%. It was good for us because we had to arrange childcare 1 day out of 3, as opposed to every 4 days.

The 12 hours proposal leads the way to equalisation of shifts. Instead of working 2 days and 2 nights you could work 3 days and one night or 4 days and no nights. This allows the LFB to close stations and reduce cover at night without affecting the hours we work.
The LFB and Coleman denied this, but the document was leaked from the corporate management board proving this.

 

[Stevienics]

But isn't that a management decision? The FBU enjoys no rights of co-determination and has not say in this over and above how it affects their members, and as a counter, the LFB remain responsible for assuring adauate cover wherever it is needed.

Any rationalisations resulting from a change in coverage are purely speculative at this time.

 

[firestorm]

But isn't that a management decision? The FBU enjoys no rights of co-determination and has not say in this over and above how it affects their members, and as a counter, the LFB remain responsible for assuring adauate cover wherever it is needed.

Any rationalisations resulting from a change in coverage are purely speculative at this time.

No. Contractual negotiations between employers and employees are enshrined in employment law. The FBU do have rights of co-determination as they are the employees representitive body both locally and nationally and are recognised as such by the employers and government, both nationally and locally.

I'll come back tomorrow to keep answering any questions. Thanks.

 

[justintime129]

I went from 5 x 7 1/2 shifts a week to 3 x 12 1/2 shifts. This is in the nhs, it was also done with both management and staff side consultation. So I have 4 days off a week to do what I want. If I chose to have a second job then it's my choice nobody elses.

I've also heard that this government want to make your first 3 days off sick unpaid for all public employees so be careful for what you wish for.

 

[The Masked Geek]

24 on 3 off and a variation on that.

The 12 hours proposal leads the way to equalisation of shifts. Instead of working 2 days and 2 nights you could work 3 days and one night or 4 days and no nights. This allows the LFB to close stations and reduce cover at night without affecting the hours we work.

24 hour shifts in a job as potentially dangerous as that? No thanks.


The second point is an effect on the service we receive as a tax payer; not an affect on you as an employee.

 

[br9mp81]

24 hour shifts in a job as potentially dangerous as that? No thanks.


The second point is an effect on the service we receive as a tax payer; not an affect on you as an employee.

how about the shift at lancs fb,4x12hr days,staying in a portakabin on call in the station yard between the day shifts on call,yes they get more dosh for this,but no family life.

 

[br9mp81]

The alternative shift proposals were the same as the American firefighters work.
24 on 3 off and a variation on that. This increased the hours available for training and community work and reduced the amount of stanby movements (where we send staff to cover shortages in other stations) by 50%. This also reduced the amount of time fire engines were not available at shift change by 50%. It was good for us because we had to arrange childcare 1 day out of 3, as opposed to every 4 days.

The 12 hours proposal leads the way to equalisation of shifts. Instead of working 2 days and 2 nights you could work 3 days and one night or 4 days and no nights. This allows the LFB to close stations and reduce cover at night without affecting the hours we work.
The LFB and Coleman denied this, but the document was leaked from the corporate management board proving this.

no mate most yank fds are 24on/24off some are going 24on/48 off.
trust me on that.

 

[justintime129]

Can anybody see the similarity between this dispute and the miners strike of the 80s. Substitute thatcher for Coleman, the govt for London fire brigade, the num fir the FBu and the stockpiling of coal for the removal of fire engines. I notice the govt are keeping quiet on this.

 

[GD on Wheels]

I went from 5 x 7 1/2 shifts a week to 3 x 12 1/2 shifts. This is in the nhs, it was also done with both management and staff side consultation. So I have 4 days off a week to do what I want. If I chose to have a second job then it's my choice nobody elses.

I've also heard that this government want to make your first 3 days off sick unpaid for all public employees so be careful for what you wish for.

I only get paid after my first three days as well. I was only paid SSP before that!!My union negotiated the new deal and thought they played a blinder. It still forces you to come into work as I also work four on and four off DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[566]

I can't see much public support in this..again. They should just get on with the job. At least they have one. Yes, fires may be dangerous, but so is Afghan' where most of the soldiers are on nearly half the pay of the Fire Fighters. Firemen signed for the job, as did we in the Forces. We can't go on strike. Our goals are moved daily, especially in Theatre. Most days are long, uncomfortable, hot and very often dangerous with often little chance of time off. We have just been put on a pay freeze for the next two years. Can we go on strike? No!

I suggest they all just shut up whinging and get back to work while they still have a job (or two), as there are many people who could happlily step into the Boots of a Fireman/woman.

 

[justintime129]

I can't see much public support in this..again. They should just get on with the job. At least they have one. Yes, fires may be dangerous, but so is Afghan' where most of the soldiers are on nearly half the pay of the Fire Fighters. Firemen signed for the job, as did we in the Forces. We can't go on strike. Our goals are moved daily, especially in Theatre. Most days are long, uncomfortable, hot and very often dangerous with often little chance of time off. We have just been put on a pay freeze for the next two years. Can we go on strike? No!

I suggest they all just shut up whinging and get back to work while they still have a job (or two), as there are many people who could happlily step into the Boots of a Fireman/woman.

What a shortsighted view just because you don't have access to a union and can't take industrial action doesn't mean the rest of us can't. Remember you won't be in the armed forces forever. Also you aren't the only ones in the public sector who are on a pay freeze.

 

[Realist78]

Allowing employers to steam roller everything until they get what they want is simply starting a race to the bottom (IMO) which I'm sure none of us wants in the long run.

 

[br9mp81]

a lot of people are missing the point on this,a change in shift times will lead to cuts in cover at night,i know of 1 fire service that is on wing and a prayer at the moment with the cover they give at nights,as for the cfo of london saying that the fbu do not want to lose 3 hours kip,is there a station in london that has no calls at night?

waits for firestorm,to reply.