Trade Group 1 Pay Rise

[daron1978]

Ive been reading this thread and thought id add my two pennies worth.

The rumour at my place is a new pay scale for trade group 1, brass looking at it now to be brought in soon. This is to off set the number who are jumping ship to BAE, turning down promotions or just getting out of the mob.

Those that have done 22 years are going to BAE, lets face it you get pension and a wage that will be higher then your current wage.

Those being offered promotion, dont see it as a good deal, crap posting, little extra pay and pension and tons more work. I know this from people on my unit alone.

The rest are getting out to stay in the area (housing, school, wifes jobs etc) working with Bae etc, i know a lot of jobs here are going civie, simply because they cant get people in and thoses who are in are away more to cover sickies!!

all in all they whole airforce needs sorting, pay 2000 screwed us all, promotion is slow compared to Navy and Army, pension, pay rise and lump sum not enough for some to committ, losing all that experience

:S

 

[osca1]

Ive been reading this thread and thought id add my two pennies worth.

The rumour at my place is a new pay scale for trade group 1, brass looking at it now to be brought in soon. This is to off set the number who are jumping ship to BAE, turning down promotions or just getting out of the mob.

Those that have done 22 years are going to BAE, lets face it you get pension and a wage that will be higher then your current wage.

Those being offered promotion, dont see it as a good deal, crap posting, little extra pay and pension and tons more work. I know this from people on my unit alone.

The rest are getting out to stay in the area (housing, school, wifes jobs etc) working with Bae etc, i know a lot of jobs here are going civie, simply because they cant get people in and thoses who are in are away more to cover sickies!!

all in all they whole airforce needs sorting, pay 2000 screwed us all, promotion is slow compared to Navy and Army, pension, pay rise and lump sum not enough for some to committ, losing all that experience

:S

All sounds good to me. We had a brief from a Group Captain from manning last week. He informed us, that they are aware of the problem. He also informed us that they are looking at Cpls beyond 22, Chiefs to age 55 and even looking at what the Australians have just done age 60. He also informed us that we will be 600 Techies down by Christmas and to put that into perspective thats the GR1 Fleet (that includes the people they have coming in).::

 

[Rob]

Rumour at my place is that the powers that be are aware of the problem. I'm sceptical about them intorducing a 3rd pay scale though, the whole point of pay 2000 was to get us all on the same 2 pay scales, the reintroduction of a 3rd might be seen like a backwards step.

I'm all for a techie pay band again, but honestly, i'm not holding my breath.

Interesting to think how many companies there are in civvy street that pay the secretaries the same as the engineers..

Oh yeah, that's right, none.

There thing that strikes me as ironic is one of the few trades still on the low pay band are the AMM's, who are servicing and signing for aircraft! It would appear that the RAF has come full circle.

Had an argument with some shiney to$$er a few weeks ago, he had just got his tapes, and to treat himself, had bought a stable belt. Obviously that assisted me in pegging him as a tw@ before i had spoken to him! His beef was that his trade deserved to be on the high pay band because they get DWR'd more than most.

My reply was something along the lines of "The more time away you do the higher LSSA bracket you go into, and you are now getting the operational bonus too, so you're already being rewarded twice, why should you be rewarded yet more?"

His reply was silence.......

Mug.

 

[The Masked Geek]

the whole point of pay 2000.....

.....was to throw out hundreds, if not thousands of years worth of economic principles.

Pay 2000 was the backwards step.

 

[BillyBunter]

All sounds good to me. We had a brief from a Group Captain from manning last week. He informed us, that they are aware of the problem. He also informed us that they are looking at Cpls beyond 22, Chiefs to age 55 and even looking at what the Australians have just done age 60. He also informed us that we will be 600 Techies down by Christmas and to put that into perspective thats the GR1 Fleet (that includes the people they have coming in).::

I just like to add half the reason promotions have slowed down now is the fact that we have so many Sgts stuck in a gap between 22 and LOS 30 , this is causing a major backlog down the system and this year proves it with only 24 SAC to CPL A Tech Ms. Its just a horrible mess and I have no idea how its going to get fixed but at least paying people a reasonable wage WILL keep people interested and in the service , this is vital till a long term plan to fix the problem is introduced. With the people who have lead us this way so far I dont think its going to happen but they wont care as they have secured there private deal with a corporate company and laughing with there 100k a year pension.

 

[Sospan]

I just like to add half the reason promotions have slowed down now is the fact that we have so many Sgts stuck in a gap between 22 and LOS 30 , this is causing a major backlog down the system and this year proves it with only 24 SAC to CPL A Tech Ms.

Add the people on continuance to this (short term retention fix) and the picture is very ugly indeed.

 

[SgtScribbly]

I just like to add half the reason promotions have slowed down now is the fact that we have so many Sgts stuck in a gap between 22 and LOS 30...

The other half of the reason is the introduction of the 80% FMDL for TG1 SNCOs. It was mentioned further up the thread about an airship not being overly concerned about the undermannng situation, but now you can officially expect 1 in 5 posts to be gapped.

Even though the gaps are there at Sgt, no one will be promoted into them because of the FMDL, slowing promotion down significantly.

 

[rest have risen above me]

The other half of the reason is the introduction of the 80% FMDL for TG1 SNCOs. It was mentioned further up the thread about an airship not being overly concerned about the undermannng situation, but now you can officially expect 1 in 5 posts to be gapped.

Even though the gaps are there at Sgt, no one will be promoted into them because of the FMDL, slowing promotion down significantly.

Can you explain that one for a thick techie please..
From what I can work out.. You're saying, we only need 80% of the manpower as 20% of posts are gapped (not you personally obviously). So where are the other 20% of people who should fill these gaps?
I think I get the jist of you're post but can you just clarify in techy speak (Slow and loud...lol).

 

[MrMasher]

I just like to add half the reason promotions have slowed down now is the fact that we have so many Sgts stuck in a gap between 22 and LOS 30 , this is causing a major backlog down the system and this year proves it with only 24 SAC to CPL A Tech Ms.

Promotion isnt that slow. The current Cpl to Sgt A Tech M has passed 100 and the Sgt to Chief A Tech M so far has numbers up to the 80's. It will filter down. The predictions for these boards have been blown out of the water.

The reason seems to be that the Sgts and Chiefs stuck between 22 and LOS30 are jumping ship once they have got themselves some quals.

 

[BillyBunter]

Promotion isnt that slow. The current Cpl to Sgt A Tech M has passed 100 and the Sgt to Chief A Tech M so far has numbers up to the 80's. It will filter down. The predictions for these boards have been blown out of the water.

The reason seems to be that the Sgts and Chiefs stuck between 22 and LOS30 are jumping ship once they have got themselves some quals.

Fair play but that was last years quota , this year I expect that figure to drop considerably

 

[MrMasher]

Fair play but that was last years quota , this year I expect that figure to drop considerably

Even so, you'd expect this times SAC to Cpl to jump a fair bit. It isnt just the promotions to Sgt and Chief that free up slots, its also natural wastage of Cpls reaching 22 and PVRs that help.

 

[chiefy]

Ive been reading this thread and thought id add my two pennies worth.

The rumour at my place is a new pay scale for trade group 1, brass looking at it now to be brought in soon. This is to off set the number who are jumping ship to BAE, turning down promotions or just getting out of the mob.

Those that have done 22 years are going to BAE, lets face it you get pension and a wage that will be higher then your current wage.

Those being offered promotion, dont see it as a good deal, crap posting, little extra pay and pension and tons more work. I know this from people on my unit alone.

The rest are getting out to stay in the area (housing, school, wifes jobs etc) working with Bae etc, i know a lot of jobs here are going civie, simply because they cant get people in and thoses who are in are away more to cover sickies!!

all in all they whole airforce needs sorting, pay 2000 screwed us all, promotion is slow compared to Navy and Army, pension, pay rise and lump sum not enough for some to committ, losing all that experience

:S

I'm not sure how much of that is perception rather than fact, after wizzing over to the DASA site I notice that RAF voluntary outflow rate has reduced form 5.8% last September to around 5.6% in January. Whilst this is high for the air force (up until a year or so ago the rate had been fairly constant at around 4.5%) it's significantly less than the other two services sitting at around 6.4% RN and f*ck knows for the Army as JPA seems to have made it impossible for them to calculate it but last figures are even higher than the navy.

I think everyone is all too aware that RAF promotion is slow due to the extended career opportunities, that coupled with a huge disparity with the other services when invaliding from service for medical reasons leaves a significant bottleneck in the system so I'd agree on those points.

Don't be fooled by what all those joining BAe tell you about their wages! I turned down a job with them purely because when I suggested the offered payscale needed reviewing before I considered the position I was told "but don't forget you'll have your pension............" Most SNCO's joining BAe are taking a considerable pay drop, I've no doubt that their new combined income may exceed their old one but not by much. There aren't many jobs out here where you start on the same pay as you left the mob especially at the moment, if you are lucky enough to get one you'll find they expect you to work considerably harder, for longer hours with much more responsibility (trust me on that one) The rewards are worthwhile especially when the pension is on top but it's no paradise.

If techy's of any ilk were going to get higher pay the RN (FAA is over 10% undermanned with the highest pvr rate in the service), or the Army (RE are leaving in droves to take up civvy jobs working for Yank companies in Afghanistan and Iraq for huge wages with companies like CB&I and the entire Oil and Gas industry seems to be propped up by ex- REME) would have thought of it by now. With the RAF pvr rate decreasing, the unemployment queue lengthening and the aviation industry literally on the bones of its arse in the UK I think they may just sit and see what happens over the next year.

 

[SgtScribbly]

Can you explain that one for a thick techie please..
From what I can work out.. You're saying, we only need 80% of the manpower as 20% of posts are gapped (not you personally obviously). So where are the other 20% of people who should fill these gaps?
I think I get the jist of you're post but can you just clarify in techy speak (Slow and loud...lol).

Would be better if a drafter explain it as they have to manage it day to day, but I think you have got it. In essence they either dont have enough bodies, or dont need to fill every post. For example if there are 100 SNCO TG1 posts at a unit, it is to be expected that 20 of them will be gapped. An FMDL ensure an equitable share of the pain. Certain places may be given a priority manpower status, but it means additional pain elsewhere.

I am not sure who is ultimately responsible for a decision to impose an FMDL, but it will have been done with plenty of consultation. You could read a lot of things into it (impending cut in requirement?)

 

[Weebl]

You could read a lot of things into it (impending cut in requirement?)

I think all that can be read into it is that there are simply not enough TG1 SNCOs left in. Some have followed several posters here advice and PVR'd or put in their notice, many others have left at the 22 year point. The outflow is way outside statistical norms (you only have to read the Goat to know why) and the RAF is not prepared for it.

The promotion forecast this year is 83/84 (cannot remember which) which will still not fill those 20% of posts.

Still, not allowed to complain about it or try to improve our lot or we will get accused of whinging and told to PVR. (Not aimed at you SgtScribbly, you have been one of the most level headed people involved in the various discussions)

It is only going to get worse, which will of course increase the outflow, nice.

 

[chiefy]

I think all that can be read into it is that there are simply not enough TG1 SNCOs left in. Some have followed several posters here advice and PVR'd or put in their notice, many others have left at the 22 year point. The outflow is way outside statistical norms (you only have to read the Goat to know why) and the RAF is not prepared for it.

Perceptions or facts?

This is the site of the Defence Analytical Services Agency: http://www.dasa.mod.uk/

They publish all legislatively required statistics about the armed forces and specifically those about manpower.

In 2006 there were 6790 SNCO'a at OR6 against a total of 48730 personnel in the RAF, in October 2008 there were 6290 against 43130 (Jan 2009 figure as there is no figure for Oct 2008) The first gives a percentage of 13.9% the second gives 14.5%, statistically there are nearer 1% more SNCO's in the air force than a 20% defecit ( if there were a defecit in TG1 even approaching 20% it would have shown up in these calculations as a significant defecit TG1 is a large component of the RAF) so the perceived shortfall of 20% would seem to be the statistical anomoly! PVR rate has dropped from a peak at summer 2008 and is now on a statistical downturn and in addition the rolling year to date recruitment figure is 3760 as opposed to 2930 for the last financial year.

I think things are looking pretty rosy from a statistical point of view and I can't imagine the airships are too worried about perception and rumour with those numbers.

 

[Weebl]

Chiefy, you may well be right however I know from experience that TG1 SNCOs are in short supply on my Sqn, and we are one of the above mentioned places with a manpower priority.

With the large influx of personnel due in the next 4 years the supervisor/producer ratio will only get worse (although the SNCO is also a producer)

Many SNCO posts are digital as well, you need one no matter how many people he is nominally in charge of. Independents need carrying out whether you have 20 people working for you or 4.

PVR does not always tell the whole story either when considering SNCO outflow, many will simply be leaving at 22 or putting in notice if they have already passed it.

I do agree though that the current financial climate will undoubtedly cause a deep sigh of relief to those charged with manning issues, and it will of course stop some of those who intended to leave to reconsider, will enough reconsider to make a difference though?

 

[chiefy]

Chiefy, you may well be right however I know from experience that TG1 SNCOs are in short supply on my Sqn, and we are one of the above mentioned places with a manpower priority.

With the large influx of personnel due in the next 4 years the supervisor/producer ratio will only get worse (although the SNCO is also a producer)

Many SNCO posts are digital as well, you need one no matter how many people he is nominally in charge of. Independents need carrying out whether you have 20 people working for you or 4.

PVR does not always tell the whole story either when considering SNCO outflow, many will simply be leaving at 22 or putting in notice if they have already passed it.

I do agree though that the current financial climate will undoubtedly cause a deep sigh of relief to those charged with manning issues, and it will of course stop some of those who intended to leave to reconsider, will enough reconsider to make a difference though?

The figure for pvr "voluntary outflow" includes those who have signed on past 22 but choose not to complete their contract .............but you are probably right about the numbers of people simply leaving at the 22 year point and this would come into the natural wastage figure, total wastage which includes this and redundancy (as far as I know there were no redundancies in the last year) comes in at 9.4% but even this is an improvement on 2007/2008 which sat at around 11%.(boosted by the increased pvr figure at that time, the difference shows no significant change but I can't be arsed to calculate out redundancy figures and medical discharges to be precise as I'm watching CSI )

The big question for me is this; if DASA's figures are correct (and I'll be honest I wouldn't bet any money whatsoever on that) why is there a shortage? I don't think it is purely perception. I have friends at Cottesmore who constantly harp on about how few people they have and the number of gapped billets around the bizarres, people being moved from pillar to post to fill manpower shortages etc and people being warned out that they may have to moved to fill x, y and z. Is everyone just undeployable nowadays?

 

[SgtScribbly]

chiefy, your figures are based on the total population of the air force and such may not represent what is actually happening in TG1. From personal experience it wouldnt surprise me if the figure for natural outflow in those trades is significantly on the up.

 

[rest have risen above me]

I can see the figures being slightly skew wiff as well due to the fact a lot of draw down was TG1 and 2 and not in the SNCO heavy trades like NCA.
I reckon the same sort of comparison on just TG1 may be interesting although difficult due to the massive change in trade structures.

 

[bombdasand]

2k a year bonus for TG1 would be nice