Trade Group 1 Pay Rise

[Sospan]

Perhaps we should introduce a PES (Professional Engineering Spine) for SNCO Techies. For ranks and trades expected to sign Indies/Vitals/Reds and Greens... This would go towards solving retention and increase the incentive for promotion.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

The recession isn't going to last forever (hopefully) and will only give the RAF short term breathing space. They soon have to wake up and realise that they are underpaying TG 1 & 2 relative to civvy street.

The recession hasn't changed my plans to leave next year, and there are far more people I know who are still going ahead with leaving than there are changing their minds about it.

Me neither, I still have no worries about leaving the RAF (well no worries related to employment anyway).

There are still good jobs out there for the right people.

 

[Creative]

Perhaps we should introduce a PES (Professional Engineering Spine) for SNCO Techies. For ranks and trades expected to sign Indies/Vitals/Reds and Greens... This would go towards solving retention and increase the incentive for promotion.

How would you select those SNCO's for this scheme? If you didn't get selected then you don't sign any paperwork at all? Very divisive I would say. The PAS was originally introduced for the Officer Aircrew who didn't want to progress up the ranks past Sqn Ldr. They remain flying for their whole career. The NCA were broought onto the scheme as a retention aid. There are conditions attached to the spine. If you become medically unfit to fly they return to pay 2000, they can't get Commissioned either.

 

[Sospan]

How would you select those SNCO's for this scheme? If you didn't get selected then you don't sign any paperwork at all? Very divisive I would say. The PAS was originally introduced for the Officer Aircrew who didn't want to progress up the ranks past Sqn Ldr. They remain flying for their whole career. The NCA were broought onto the scheme as a retention aid. There are conditions attached to the spine. If you become medically unfit to fly they return to pay 2000, they can't get Commissioned either.

Basically all SNCO that might might directly be involved in aircraft engineering, even if you had a desk job you would get as you may be posted on to a sqn. Similar to the aircrew.

Guess that means all trade groups 1 and 2 unless any other techie trades have Indies.

 

[Realist78]

Perhaps we should introduce a PES (Professional Engineering Spine) for SNCO Techies. For ranks and trades expected to sign Indies/Vitals/Reds and Greens... This would go towards solving retention and increase the incentive for promotion.

IMO, a sensible suggestion, especially the R&G, doing the JEngOs job, get rewarded, simple.

 

[Webbo]

IMO, a sensible suggestion, especially the R&G, doing the JEngOs job, get rewarded, simple.

But what about the Cpl's who can and do in exceptional circumstances sign indies, or what about acting Sgt doing indies, how do you reward them?

 

[Realist78]

But what about the Cpl's who can and do in exceptional circumstances sign indies, or what about acting Sgt doing indies, how do you reward them?

Whilst not detracting from the fact that indies are quite rightly 'vital' and do deserve some additional thought for extra pay, R&Gs (usually earned after a grilling by OC Eng) are air worthiness issues that are balanced on risk and IMO deserve some recognition apart from an occasional one-liner in your SJAR and the fact that you're covering for a JEngO who (as seems to be prevalent nowadays) is always busy with niff naff and trivia anywhere else apart from their workplace.

 

[Webbo]

Whilst not detracting from the fact that indies are quite rightly 'vital' and do deserve some additional thought for extra pay, R&Gs (usually earned after a grilling by OC Eng) are air worthiness issues that are balanced on risk and IMO deserve some recognition apart from an occasional one-liner in your SJAR and the fact that you're covering for a JEngO who (as seems to be prevalent nowadays) is always busy with niff naff and trivia anywhere else apart from their workplace.

So only FS/WO should be getting more pay due to, as you put it, R&Gs are air worthiness issues. What about the AMM signing for a serviceable a/c on a BF, picking up snags on an AF, Air Worthiness is throughout the ranks, from AMM to WO, should we all not be rewarded?

 

[gemarriott]

But what about the Cpl's who can and do in exceptional circumstances sign indies, or what about acting Sgt doing indies, how do you reward them?

speaking for Plumbers, Cpls who sign Vital checks on seats, and the guys who do the fit have a far bigger burden of responsibilitry than the Sneck who does the Indies. In truth all A/C trades and ranks have that burden of responsibility on their shoulders and a bit of extra dosh in the pay packet is a good way to recognise it.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

speaking for Plumbers, Cpls who sign Vital checks on seats, and the guys who do the fit have a far bigger burden of responsibilitry than the Sneck who does the Indies. In truth all A/C trades and ranks have that burden of responsibility on their shoulders and a bit of extra dosh in the pay packet is a good way to recognise it.

I'd go for that as well GEM. The SAC(T)/JT and Charlie Papa Lima doing the fit have all the responsibility, I just see the indies as a fresh set of eyes going over anything that may have been missed.

I agree with Webbo, airworthiness and flight safety issues are vital across ALL ranks from the SAC AMM to WO Eng.

 

[Sospan]

So only FS/WO should be getting more pay due to, as you put it, R&Gs are air worthiness issues. What about the AMM signing for a serviceable a/c on a BF, picking up snags on an AF, Air Worthiness is throughout the ranks, from AMM to WO, should we all not be rewarded?

It would be a start if AAM's were on the higher pay band!

 

[Webbo]

It would be a start if AAM's were on the higher pay band!

And there begins the problem. Our job is, as the name suggests the Royal Air Force, people who are responsible for air worthiness on aircraft deserve that recognition.

 

[3wheeledtechie]

And there begins the problem. Our job is, as the name suggests the Royal Air Force, people who work on aircraft deserve that recognition.

Know what you meant to say (I think), but it is responsibility for airworthiness that deserves recognition.

 

[Smakheed]

Some of the AMM's that have worked for me wouldn't even be worth dole money if they were kicked out for thier crapness, but then that's down to the instructors, and now most of those have never worked to the depth I have on aircraft in thier dangerously short and inexperienced careers, so how can they pass on wisdom to the new guys if they've never had lessons.

But if you think we are going to get a 10-11% payrise in this governments term in office then I tink either there's another huge round of redundencies coming up with miniscule payouts or you live in a land where the pigs ae green and common sense rules the RAF.

 

[Webbo]

Some of the AMM's that have worked for me wouldn't even be worth dole money if they were kicked out for thier crapness, but then that's down to the instructors, and now most of those have never worked to the depth I have on aircraft in thier dangerously short and inexperienced careers, so how can they pass on wisdom to the new guys if they've never had lessons.

But if you think we are going to get a 10-11% payrise in this governments term in office then I tink either there's another huge round of redundencies coming up with miniscule payouts or you live in a land where the pigs ae green and common sense rules the RAF.

Hang-on a fcuking minute, at what point did I say I think we're going to get a 10-11% payrise. I was only passing info that I was told the lineys had been told at a Stn Cdr briefing. I don't care what land I live in or what colour the pigs are, all i'm concerned is whether or not i'll be getting £3500 a year extra (well not me but Mrs Webbo and the 2 little Webbo's) DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Bucc Boy]

Hang-on a fcuking minute, at what point did I say I think we're going to get a 10-11% payrise. I was only passing info that I was told the lineys had been told at a Stn Cdr briefing. I don't care what land I live in or what colour the pigs are, all i'm concerned is whether or not i'll be getting £3500 a year extra (well not me but Mrs Webbo and the 2 little Webbo's) DT_Xtremez_28:

Not wanting to be too cynical, but let’s face facts. Are the aircraft still flying enough for most of the officer and Air ranks to get their ‘Tick’ in the box and move on to pastures/pensions new?

I think the answer is a definite YES!

Therefore, be realistic and just accept that there are more people on the higher pay band than before and nobody, save the TG1 brethren, gives a rat’s ass!!

The two most scary opinions floating around our TG1 crewroom at the moment are: -

1.I would honestly like to re-muster to the admin trade as it is the only chance I have of ever getting on a straight days shift (Cpl and above), and
2.If we could strike………I think we would be.

 

[BillyBunter]

Just interesting what all have viewed on this post.

I am a Techie and the money issue is a sore point. I joined as a techie as I could not make pilot due to medical reasons i choose second best and thats being a liney. in the late 80s early 90s when i joined it was the pinnacle of not making the best but second best I can live with. Right now personally I have done 18 years in rank and im only a JNCO , i see fellow people with same time experience at Flt Sgt level. As a Techie or whatever you other trades want to call it , I think now its being discriminative to TG1 and TG2 personel as they have to do 2 more ranks to ever acheive WO, less pay for doing more than every other person.And just to make it worse Admin and MT both palm of there **** to the TG Important as they cannot cope. Its no bloody wonder people are leaving in there droves and only now they realise , i find that hard to believe that they care , so ****ing hate the RAF cause ****ing nobbers ruin it mainly in big shiny suits with stripes and private planes

Rant over again part 2

 

[muttywhitedog]

There are plenty TG1 & 2 SNCOs who get picked up after 14 or so years, so stop using the "more ranks" argument as a reason why you have not.

SAC-JT (via FT) - 3 yrs
JT-Cpl - 4 yrs
Cpl - Sgt - 5 yrs

with a couple built in for slack.

Easy!

cue big bite....?

 

[Sospan]

There are plenty TG1 & 2 SNCOs who get picked up after 14 or so years, so stop using the "more ranks" argument as a reason why you have not.

SAC-JT (via FT) - 3 yrs
JT-Cpl - 4 yrs
Cpl - Sgt - 5 yrs

with a couple built in for slack.

Easy!

cue big bite....?

This really depends on what generation you joined up in and what techie stream you entered under, I take it you were one of the lucky ones. You only have to see the ages of people on TMT2 to see the average age is 35+ (with a few exceptions).

 

[Geeza]

Some of the AMM's that have worked for me wouldn't even be worth dole money if they were kicked out for thier crapness, but then that's down to the instructors, and now most of those have never worked to the depth I have on aircraft in thier dangerously short and inexperienced careers, so how can they pass on wisdom to the new guys if they've never had lessons.

But if you think we are going to get a 10-11% payrise in this governments term in office then I tink either there's another huge round of redundencies coming up with miniscule payouts or you live in a land where the pigs ae green and common sense rules the RAF.

I'd be interested to hear your evidence for this especially (correct me if I'm wrong) as I understand they mainly do FLM work and perhaps rects under close supervision.