Trade Group 1 Pay Rise

[MingMong]

Sorry, but that is absolute sh1te.

And that comment proves that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

There were so many JTs who were overlooked for promotion purely because the RAF introduced a new system for entry (mech-mech and mech-tech) and then had to promote the mech-techs ahead of the JTs in order to keep promises they gave to the mech-techs when they were recruited.

 

[Rugby-Jock-Lad]

NFTR...STFU!!

These TG1 and TG2 are real Techies and not the ex TG11 dross calling themselves ICT Technicians.

And you wonder why we Ex-TG3 have problems in the new TG4? The truth is these guys deserve a higher pay as has been said. They are responsible for AC and that is a a BIG responsibilty.

I take it NFTR we won't see you doing calibration amintenance on Ground Radio anytime soon??? Another BIG responsibility.

Go back to your helpdesk!!!

 

[NFTR]

And that comment proves that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Yeah, and you do.

How on earth can anyone claim that the year an individual joined up dictates their chances of promotion.

I accept that quotas fluctuate, manning trends change, but that is just taking the pi$$.

 

[MingMong]

Yeah, and you do.

How on earth can anyone claim that the year an individual joined up dictates their chances of promotion.

I accept that quotas fluctuate, manning trends change, but that is just taking the pi$$.

Yes I do as I have witnessed it!

OK, if you want it spelling out to you in simple terms here goes. I am making no effort to be accurate with the years, because I don't remember exactly when the RAF decided to screw around with TG 1 & 2 training, but here goes...

1990 AC Smith joins up as an Avionics mech
1991 He leaves training as an AC soon to be SAC
1995 He gets picked up for a fitters course
1996 He leaves Cosford as a JT and joins the promotion rat race
2002 He get's picked up finally for promotion to Cpl



1992 AC Jones joins as a mech-tech
1994 He passes out of Cosford as an SAC
1996 He completes his NVQ and gets made up to SAC(T)
2001 SAC Jones gets picked up for promotion, no JT rank for him to worry about any more, so straight to Cpl


The figures are by no means accurate, but the scenario is what myself and many of my peers have seen happen to our JT's. Both these guys could be just as good as each other, but the system that they joined up under has dictated their promotion rate. JT's who had already been therough the SAC rank were stuffed in the same promotion rat race as SACs, this was only ever going to give the SACs an advantage, for many of the JTs the time they spent as SAC was totally wasted.

Hope that helps explain to you what many of us in TG 1 & 2 have seen first hand.

 

[glassestashthunderflash]

Yeah, and you do.

How on earth can anyone claim that the year an individual joined up dictates their chances of promotion.

I accept that quotas fluctuate, manning trends change, but that is just taking the pi$$.

Another scenario for you. When I joined up it was as an A Mech A or nothing. No Direct Entrance (for those that may not be aware, 1 year in training and pass out a JT) options where open and I was informed there wouldn't be for some time. So I passed out mid 91 as an LAC. I got FT in 97 so 6 years, not bad, there was one lad on my course that was 12! Anyway, I was JT in 98, 7 and half years.

Just as I left Halton (prior to it being RTS etc) I met some guys who where the first of the Mech-Techs, pass out as an LAC, 18 months later back on FT, so JT's in just over 3 years.

When I joined up there was no mention of Mech-Tech coming in just over 6 months time. So, if I'd have walked in to the CIO 6 months later perhaps I would have been recruited as a Mech-Tech and been a JT in 3 years rather than the 7+ it took me.

Now can you see?

 

[True Blue Jack]

Yeah, and you do.

How on earth can anyone claim that the year an individual joined up dictates their chances of promotion.

I accept that quotas fluctuate, manning trends change, but that is just taking the pi$$.

I take it you don't remember the promotion drought of the early 90s? Several trades had zero or virtually zero promotion for up to 5 years. The guys who were just starting to become competitive when the door slammed shut had to wait a long time to get the promotion they richly deserved. In TG17, when promotion opened back up, one-third of our SACs were promoted within 2 years - which included some who only had the minimum 3 assessments.

As for the mech-mechs, they seem to be catching up quite well now from what I've seen. Guys who took a long time to get their tapes - mostly because they had to wait far too long for their fitters courses - are now putting up their third at about the same time as the non-techies they joined up with.

 

[NFTR]

OK, now thats explained, I see your frustration.

Just one thing, how is the time as an SAC wasted (in the case of the mech, not the mech-tech), surely appraisals are being raised and if the lad shows promise, he should rise to the top and be as good or better than the mech-tech? Or am I missing something again, if so apologies. Or can the system really be favouring the mech-techs, as you seem to allude to, just to prove the new structure is 'working'?

 

[feckinG RANT]

As for the mech-mechs, they seem to be catching up quite well now from what I've seen. Guys who took a long time to get their tapes - mostly because they had to wait far too long for their fitters courses - are now putting up their third at about the same time as the non-techies they joined up with.

We've gone off topic a bit but yes, you're quite right on this. I got my third after just 4 1/2 years as a Cpl, but I'd been in just under 17 which is about the same length of time as many CT and FS got their third. I got held up as an SAC but then rattled through the other ranks, whereas they got to JT quick and then plodded on to Cpl and Sgt.

What is a pain is that I spent 5 years plus on in training in a rank that only techies have, plus if I make CT I shall spend time in that rank too, say 5 years? So that's 11 years extra but yet I'm still tied to the same time-frames as none techies to get a career to 55. This is sh1te! Perhaps a subject for another post?

 

[feckinG RANT]

OK, now thats explained, I see your frustration.

Just one thing, how is the time as an SAC wasted (in the case of the mech, not the mech-tech), surely appraisals are being raised and if the lad shows promise, he should rise to the top and be as good or better than the mech-tech? Or am I missing something again, if so apologies. Or can the system really be favouring the mech-techs, as you seem to allude to, just to prove the new structure is 'working'?

As an old Mech SAC you were working towards FT and JT, an SAC(T) is the same as a JT, so any time spent as an SAC as an old Mech was worth nothing once FT was given, whereas an SAC(T) was assessed prior to getting Q-Ops and they counted towards their promotion. Make sense?

So SAC A has X amount of appraisals, gets FT and then has to start again to work up to Cpl.

SAC B has X amount of appraisals, gets Q-Ops but his appraisals still count so promotion may be months away rather than years building up an SJAR portfolio.

 

[T55]

I take it you don't remember the promotion drought of the early 90s? Several trades had zero or virtually zero promotion for up to 5 years. The guys who were just starting to become competitive when the door slammed shut had to wait a long time to get the promotion they richly deserved. In TG17, when promotion opened back up, one-third of our SACs were promoted within 2 years - which included some who only had the minimum 3 assessments.

As for the mech-mechs, they seem to be catching up quite well now from what I've seen. Guys who took a long time to get their tapes - mostly because they had to wait far too long for their fitters courses - are now putting up their third at about the same time as the non-techies they joined up with.

I certainly do! Let's just say that I was a Cpl for over 10 years and I'd like to think it wasn't my fault. Now all I see are my juniors catching me up very fast and I don't think Continuance is going to help my promotion prospects, merely put more obstacles in my way. I still believe I should have joined in another trade with 2 less ranks to achieve, particulary since on my Station there are at least a couple of "teenage" Warrant Officers and many "infant" Flight Sergeants!

 

[Sospan]

Sorry, but that is absolute sh1te.

Thanks for your polite reply! I think a few people have put you back in your box...

Back on topic, I have been thinking about the comparison between my job and many other trades and the thing that strikes me is that I have the normal duties of a SNCO, Welfare/Guard Commander/SJARS/GPC/Inventory/ I also have to put my signature to things every day that will if not carried out to the relevant standard can put me in prison for manslaughter or perhaps vicarious liability. Do I get paid anymore than the clerks or the cooks NO! Sorry to pick off a few trades but I have flight safety decisions and to interpret dodgy IPT orders in order to maintain a flying program. I am sure most TG1 people would agree with me, its becoming more and more of a battle just to keep your head above water when other trades seem to be paid the same for a fraction of the responsibility.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

Can I just point out one thing, I was a mech-tech and I was a JT. All being a mech tech got you was a guaranteed FT Course provided you weren't a tool. The situation you are refering to was the introduction of the SAC(T) and the alleged all technician airforce.

Something which i'm sure has been mentioned before would be to bring techie promotion to be inline with that of the REME. They have brought the 3 services inline in terms of pay but not promotion prospects or rank parity. That would address the techie pay disparity quite nicely without proving a problem to JPA. I mean a REME techie has to be a half screw before he can sign tools out. Doesn't quite line up with the RAF does it?

 

[Geeza]

F*ck it! Just go full circle and return to the techie/admin structure that went out in the sixties! You could go all retro and have the upside down strips, master techs, chf techs with crowns, hairy marys . . . anybody with me?DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Webbo]

Anyway back to post number 1, has anyone heard rumblings of a Trade Group 1 pay rise, or was mentioned brief just to keep the lads happy and not ask any awkward questions!DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Smakheed]

2.If we could strike………I think we would be.

No, we can't, but we can work to the letter of the law and stop taking it up the a$$, complain about H&S breaches and refuse to work if the correct equipment is not supplied to do it. Now let's see how long it takes for the RAF to grind to a halt, but we wont because we know that if we did it would be our mates in theatre that would suffer, the barcodes know this and rely on our good will and pride to do the task, because if we were away in the big beach then we'd want our kit on time.

 

[BillyBunter]

Appreciate the words Ming Mong cheers at least you know what im trying to say.

MuttyWhiteDog i am not going to get into a battle of words as what I meant was from an old school point of view. I joined up at a bad time and it took me and my fellow recruits that joined up on average 9 years to get a fitters course. Funny old thing most of us went through at the same time and we spent many a night questioning why people took 5 years and we took longer. Sure you can say we must be wankers , thats your opinion but you dont know me so I guess you keep your opinions to your self on that matter.
All i am saying is now you have to look and wonder why admin staff can make JNCO in 3 years yet it takes a techie prolly 9-10 years to make same rank now with the same wage, that multiplies up over a career of 22 years.

Is this fair? Ill let you decide that

 

[muttywhitedog]

You are right BB - I dont know you and wouldnt judge you. I am merely stating that in the eyes of various promotion boards over the last 18 years, other people have been found to be better than you. I personally know many TG1 & 2 personnel and the majority of newly promoted SNCOs on my Sqn have done between 14 and 16 years. FACT.

It may well be that the occasional SAC Pers Admin gets their tapes after 3 years, but I can assure you that it is not a regular occurrence. Just as the odd teccy will get theirs way ahead of their peers.

I agree that its unfair that technical trades have to go through two extra ranks to get a full career, but I also remember the total resistance from TG1 & 2 when it was mooted to scrap Chf Techs. The resistance mainly came from SNCOs & JNCOs who felt that they would have little or no chance of reaching FS if Chf Tech (and its higher pension figure) was withdrawn because of the Chf Techs who would have to be promoted to FSs blocking the flow up for years to come.

I also agree that TG1 & 2 are underpaid. However there is no Uber Pay Band in the RAF and if you want to earn £40K+ pa then you need to be looking elsewhere.

 

[glassestashthunderflash]

I personally know many TG1 & 2 personnel and the majority of newly promoted SNCOs on my Sqn have done between 14 and 16 years. FACT.

That FACT sounds a bit off, you must have all the SNCO's out there that fall in to that bracket! I thought I was doing well at just under 17 years, I have been very lucky and only know of a handful of people that have done it quicker. For the record:

LAC/SAC - 6 years
FT - 1 Year
JT - 5 years
Cpl - 4 1/2 years

I can only imagine those newly promoted SNCO's are either 1st tranche Mech-Techs from the early 90's or AV's.

 

[Mickwreay]

That FACT sounds a bit off, you must have all the SNCO's out there that fall in to that bracket! I thought I was doing well at just under 17 years, I have been very lucky and only know of a handful of people that have done it quicker. For the record:

LAC/SAC - 6 years
FT - 1 Year
JT - 5 years
Cpl - 4 1/2 years

I can only imagine those newly promoted SNCO's are either 1st tranche Mech-Techs from the early 90's or AV's.

Agree with you here mate Techies going through J/T & C/T will take forever to reach FS

LAC/SAC 1985-1990
J/T 1990-1993 Time promoted to Cpl
Cpl 1993-2001 One of the shortest time in rank from the techies promoted to Sgt on my IMLC in 2001
Sgt 2001-2008
C/T 2008-2010 Civvy St

When you joined and on which mech scheme, definitely had a bearing on how quickly you got promoted.

 

[Sospan]

That FACT sounds a bit off, you must have all the SNCO's out there that fall in to that bracket! I thought I was doing well at just under 17 years, I have been very lucky and only know of a handful of people that have done it quicker. For the record:

LAC/SAC - 6 years
FT - 1 Year
JT - 5 years
Cpl - 4 1/2 years

I can only imagine those newly promoted SNCO's are either 1st tranche Mech-Techs from the early 90's or AV's.

Well you are going to have to except it happens, I was a JT but I got my third quicker than most, before my 12 year point in fact.