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propersplitbrainme
Warrant Officer
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We shifties used to have this argument with the daisies at Lyneham TB.
Daisies - You only work for half the days of a year
Us - Yes but our days are 12 hours long
Daisies - I'd sooner have the days off
Us - We also work bank holidays and xmas as well if they fall in our shift pattern.
And so on ad nauseum. When we actually sat down and worked it out, there was actually negligible difference in the number of hours worked over the course of a year between shifties and daisies!
Kingguin said:
True Blue Jack said:
Its like a Monty python sketch, all thats missing is 'I used to live in a shoebox in t'middle of t'road'!
Lowest common denominatorism doesn't work, your terms and conditions, my terms and conditions, a bank managersd terms and conditions, a nurse's terms and conditions, Wayne Rooney's terms and conditions are all irrelevant to one another.
To my mind, what the London Fire Brigade is trying to do is unethical; if they carry out this re-arrangement of their employees contracts who else will try and do it and to what extent? How close to home does the spotlight have to get before we all start to feel uncomfortable.
Smokinbarrels
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Can i ask a question relating to the Defence Fire Service. These are the civilians that carry out the work as firefighters on most RAF units.
How many hours per week do they work, how much do they get paid and how many times do they get called out or risk their lives?
I bet these firefighters have far better conditions than the local fire brigade and get paid far better for it!
How many hours per week do they work, how much do they get paid and how many times do they get called out or risk their lives?
I bet these firefighters have far better conditions than the local fire brigade and get paid far better for it!
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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'Better' conditions is a relative term. A long time ago on a completely different thread Firestorm told us that he left the RAF to join the civvy fire brigade because he wanted to actually fight some fires - a motivation which I respect and admire. His job is now much more demanding than it was when he wore a string vest to work but he is also far better paid for it. I don't know what the pay scales are for DFRMO firefireghters but I suspect they are more comparable to the SACs they work alongside than their non-MOD counterparts.
In the example you cited earlier, your friend works 4 days, spends 4 nights at home waiting for his pager, then has 4 days off. In theory he may only actually work 4 days in 12 and a large proportion of those 4 days at work will be spent waiting for events to which to react. That's not a bad deal whichever way you spin it, even if his fire station is in a shoebox in t'middle of t'road (thank you to PSBM for trivialising a sensible discussion).
propersplitbrainme
Warrant Officer
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No more trivial than your comments about how much work you have to do were irrelevant I'm afraid.
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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I was attempting, in my clumsy way, to demonstrate that 8 days/nights at work followed by 4 days off is not such a terrible deal even if the working days are 12 hours long. I think you said more or less the same thing?
propersplitbrainme
Warrant Officer
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Well OK fair enough, but my comment was aimed at your own comment about having a stack of work to do, which the subsequent poster 'trumped' by stating how much travel and work he had to content with. None of that is relevant to anyone else's situation, especially those outside of your sphere of employment.
There seems to me to be an increase in cross-occupation jealousy going on these days, i.e. people working in one sector look at a facet of someone else's working terms and conditions that is more favourable to their own and draw the conclusion that either they are being hard done by, or the other worker is on an easy ride. The media, and yes it keeps coming back to them, are only to happy to stir up this inter-occupation rivalry, especially when the target is a public sector worker. One of the few sensible discussions carried out by a newspaper columnist came after one newspaper had worked itself up into a frenzy of hate and spite after it discovered there were civil servants earning mor money than the prime minister (shock, horror, probe!). The columnist tried to imagine a world in which everyone was paid according to a What The Prime Minister Earns (WTPME) index, i.e. where everyone received a fraction of the PM's pay depending on their worth to society. It proved to be a fruitless exercise because cross-occupation equivalency is near impossible to measure.
Whereas I was taking the p*ss - apart from the London weighting comment; that was irony! TBJ (whom I know) will have chuckled at my attempt to top his workload.
My previous posts on this subject have attempted to generate reasonable discussion and convey that I believe there are 2 sides to every debate. I have acknowledged the FBU argument and quoted from their website. I note no such flexibity from those in favour of the the FBU action.
That aside, there is a quite simple common denominator - llike Fire personnel we too are Public Servants.
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like a lot of others on the goat sat waiting for the good news to roll downhill to us,defence cuts will hit the dfs and raf fftrs,stations will close like kinloss etc,some will see cuts to cover if the sar contract comes in,others may see cover cut however given that lafs are looking to cut as well it may be taking chances and hoping for the best,why the lafs and dfs do not work together to cover mod risks and the local area around beats me.
any one else recall the chilmark village fire?
T
The Masked Geek
Guest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ting-undertakers-teachers-Versace-models.html
I know its the daily mail but.........
I know its the daily mail but.........
G
grumpyoldb
Guest
You know what they say about "No smoke without fire.............!"
DT_Xtremez_42:
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What's wrong with having a second job if you do the contracted hours of your first job.
So the firemen work 4 on 4 off plenty of time on their days off to do a second job.
So the firemen work 4 on 4 off plenty of time on their days off to do a second job.
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What a mauling the leader of the FB union just got on R5live by Stephen Nolan.
Q: You are on the record that the new 12 on and 12 off shift leaves firefighters little time to spend with their wives and Children?
A: Yes.
Q: But 25% of Firefighters have an additional job?
A: Errrrrr. Yes.
Q:OK. And there is no difference in employed numbers, pay, fire engines or hours worked. This is about the 3 hours off one shift and on the other.
A:Um. Well, we have to talk to our members blah de blah.
Really FS - if you have a case at all (and lord knows, no-one on that programme could understand it), this isn't the guy to make it.
Q: You are on the record that the new 12 on and 12 off shift leaves firefighters little time to spend with their wives and Children?
A: Yes.
Q: But 25% of Firefighters have an additional job?
A: Errrrrr. Yes.
Q:OK. And there is no difference in employed numbers, pay, fire engines or hours worked. This is about the 3 hours off one shift and on the other.
A:Um. Well, we have to talk to our members blah de blah.
Really FS - if you have a case at all (and lord knows, no-one on that programme could understand it), this isn't the guy to make it.
T
The Masked Geek
Guest
There is no problem with it until the second job affects the primary.
In this case, the second job may be what is causing the strike.
No. Its not true. The RMT are not on the picket lines.
Thats secondary picketing and thus illegal.
King Quin, can you just let me know what perks you think I recieve over other public sector workers? I'd be interested to know your opinion on this.
Nice spin! Then explain to me why my hours are the longest basic hours in the public sector? I work a 42 hour week, that hardly part time.
I have to correct you. On the 31st of October my employers begins terminating our contracts. If i don't sign the new, worse contract I am out of a job. I work for the public sector, not a victorian mill owner. Though you seized on the fact that one member out of 5600 lives in Denmark. Propaganda really does work.
How is it worse though? Having a wee read in the news I noticed the amount of time worked etc isn't changing and the days on/off are still the same it's just the fact that you are going from at 15/9 hour shift to 12/12. Am I completely missing the point? Apologies if I am
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Well, they said last night that consulations on this shift change have been ongoing for 2 years nationally, and its just the London FB that have declined to agree to anything and that they are not even turning up to the arbitration hearings (this wasn't denied BTW).
Really, from the perspective of the man in the street and pretty much everyone in the private sector, this does sound very much like a bout of collective petulance with little or nothing of substance to mitigate the FB Union claims.
In fact, the choice to strike on Nov 5th instead of any other day of the year was never answered last night, even though the question was asked several times....what kills the skunk is the reputation it gives itself in the end.
Really, from the perspective of the man in the street and pretty much everyone in the private sector, this does sound very much like a bout of collective petulance with little or nothing of substance to mitigate the FB Union claims.
In fact, the choice to strike on Nov 5th instead of any other day of the year was never answered last night, even though the question was asked several times....what kills the skunk is the reputation it gives itself in the end.
Yet another story fed to the daily mail by the LFB press machine. You have to ask why?
The LFB press office is a 37 (yes 37!) strong team lead by a director of communications, recruited recently on £94K from his former role as a spin Dr.
What does is matter that people work 2 jobs?
After working a 42 hour week they should be applauded for getting off their arses and contributing more in tax to society. The bizzare thing is that Cllr Coleman, who sanctioned this leak, works more than one job and is the 2nd highest paid local politician in the country. When asked last night if he thought having a second job was wrong he said "no!". Then why leak this to the press?
I heard the same program and though it was favourable, though it did decend into a free for all near the end. Though I was quite shocked to hear the normally right wing John Gaunt coming out in favour of the FBU.
Interesting how Brian Coleman brushed aside the fact that he just voted himself a 27% increase from the LFB and then a 38% increase from Barnet council.
The new hours would have no impact at all, in fact 12's give the opportunity to work more.