PAYD Bringing ISS To Its Knees

[Mentalist]

Sorry, 'consultation' wording bit too formal. What I mean't was 'meetings' as a JR mess rep for my place of work (anyone remember this secondary duty?).

Okay, fair enough, but obviously consultation is very different to meeting, so you can excuse my reaction.

I do remember it and did it at Wittering in 2002/3. I too remember PAYD being mentioned at some of the meetings. I do not recall one instance where it was even slightly mentioned that PAYD was a result of widespread troop
whinging. It was always about promoting it as "giving a wider choice/value/flexibility" etc.....
Nothing about, the Airships have listened and you will now get what you want.

Not sure why so many serving and ex-serving people are getting a kick out of seeing today's troops being treated like HMP guests with regards to pretty appalling food. I hope it gives you great satisfaction to see forces Personell being fed on a diet of crap, this will surely aid the UK in having a fighting fit Armed Forces !!!!!
And as I said previously, the guys suffering the most, probably wernt even in when YOUR generation were moaning the most !!!

 

[True Blue Jack]

Not sure why so many serving and ex-serving people are getting a kick out of seeing today's troops being treated like HMP guests with regards to pretty appalling food.

No-one is "getting a kick" out of it but people have to understand how we got into the position we are now in. Look on the bright side - back in the day we would moan about the quality of the food and the standard reply was "we can only do so much with the money we are given". Now if you are unhappy with the quality of the food you can make alternative arrangements. Of course, this will have the effect of destroying the messes as we now know them and we will probably end up with a US-style "dining facility" a few years from now but that is worthy of its own thread.

 

[Mentalist]

So my 20 years of listening to people moan about paying for meals at weekends or weekday breakfasts that they weren't eating, the first few years of which I was also a living-in singly, doesn't count as evidence in your eyes? I have been accused of many things in my time but naivete has never been one of them.

Good luck with your search, it won't take very long and I am sure Veteran's Aid will be very grateful for your donation.

So you listened to people moaning for 20 years about food charges ?? Wow, your generation sounds exactly like the sort of whinging little gets that todays generation are accused of being. And I thought today's generation were meant to be the moaners, seems like they have only picked up on yesteryears Airmen.
You should have started knocking around with some people who ad better things to do than moan about paying £3 for 3 great meals a day. Hope you are making better friend choices these days, because I bet they were the same people who thought having to iron their uniform was a huge chore.

 

[justintime129]

Not sure why so many serving and ex-serving people are getting a kick out of seeing today's troops being treated like HMP guests with regards to pretty appalling food. I hope it gives you great satisfaction to see forces Personell being fed on a diet of crap, this will surely aid the UK in having a fighting fit Armed Forces !!!!!
And as I said previously, the guys suffering the most, probably wernt even in when YOUR generation were moaning the most !!!

I think you are being a bit over the top by saying folks are taking great delight in the food bring served. Far from it I'd say the majority would like to see a return to the good old days. I can honestly say in over 22 years service I never once ate in a rubbish airmans mess. The old school chef wo's and flt sgts wouldn't allow it. Gone ate the days when sacs and cpls were cooks and you only became a chef when you got your third.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2

 

[vim_fuego]

It's fair and absolutely true to say that PAYD had a long lead-in time...Hard to pin down but probably the subject of whinges for a good 30 years. People going back that long really did have a bee in their bonnet about it so Mentalist you're going to have to accept that as you weren't around to witness it. Not armed with servicable crystal balls in those days I doubt more than a handful of the wisest amongst us could prophesise what would be the outcome. As the PAYD plans began to firm up those directly involved either in the contracting or messing commitees probably had alarms bells beginning to go off in their heads but at that point it probably had a head of steam up and impossible to stop what there is today.

As for air officer's involvement...I'm guessing people further down the food chain staffed this and formulised plans to present to them...These activities will have done the careers of the developers no harm whatsover so in selling it to the upper echelons no amount of proxy enthusiasm would have been spared on your behalves about how much you all wanted it...plus any SO2/1 who can sell major savings upstream, especially off the back of perceived enthusiasm from the common soldiery, would be encouraged to do so. So I think AOC's had involvement in the final say but what they see to make a judgement on and what the true state of affairs actually are differ.

Will you be able to pin it down to a single document? unlikely. Will there be multiple sources stating 'appetite' for PAYD? Yes if you dig around enough. Will they represent accurately what was said in these working groups of years ago? You can twist and record records to suit your requirements in any walk of life....

 

[JFOM]

I remember PAYD when it was mooted way back - and I think, maybe even before '94.

And yes, singlies did complain lots about paying for food that they didn't eat. I also remember lots of complaints of married people getting free food during exercises whilst singlies were still paying for it. There were lots of issues, but what I DO remember, is that what your average singly wanted was to pay for all of his food eaten at the end of the month - a bit like the SNECs and O's mess. That somehow got skewed to lets fire all the RAF chefs and have people paying per meal taken by some company trying to make a buck.

I personally loved the 'community' feel that we had when we still had RAF chefs. As mentioned before, if you were on guard, you could pop in and get a sandwich made - almost anytime. I also remember a certain In-Flight Catering section getting investigated by the plods due to the large amount of food disappearing, DCS anyone? It was fun and good times and everyone felt like they were in it together so everyone helped each other out.

PAYD is another example of the erosion of this community feel. But, people did want it or at least a slightly different form of it.

Just my two pennies worth!

 

[Mentalist]

I think you are being a bit over the top by saying folks are taking great delight in the food bring served. Far from it I'd say the majority would like to see a return to the good old days. I can honestly say in over 22 years service I never once ate in a rubbish airmans mess. The old school chef wo's and flt sgts wouldn't allow it. Gone ate the days when sacs and cpls were cooks and you only became a chef when you got your third.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2

Justintime, I tell it as I see it, this thread is blatantly full of people who are concerned about the appalling standards of food being served to today's Airman/SNCO/OFFICER. It doesn't really need unsubstantiated digs from people on why we are where we are right now.
It's pretty insulting to me and everyone else who has seen their standard of life on an RAF Station plummet due to the poor food on offer.
You reap what you so, and other such comments, will be met with the same resonse in kind.
I am typing this from Oman, where MCSU have been feeding me for 4 weeks. I can not tell you how good the standard of food has been, meat balls tasting like meat balls, tasty curries, fresh veg, decent pudding, I can't see how a temporary kitchen in the middle of a desert can outdo a permanent kitchen in the UK on food standards.

 

[Sixty Percent Overlap]

Getting back on the matter at hand. It's unfortunate that we'll never be able to reverse the decisions that have been made and it's just a bl00dy shame that we're having to abide by what we have now.

 

[Mentalist]

One last quick question to you all, maybe two,

If not one person had ever complained about food charges, do you believe we would be where we are today with PAYD ??

PAYD is a tri-service introduction, the RAF being a lot smaller than the Army. I believe the Army have a very differen set up to the RAF, much less 8-5, Mon to Fri. Therefore, much more use of weekend messing and in my experience, Army bods more likely to go for breakfast, probably cause they actually need the calories for their day ahead. Do you think that a few moaning Airman, had the power to influence a change which has resulted in PAYD across 3 services ?

Or is it entirely possible, that people in high places, who are much more intelligent (on paper) than you and me, saw a vision that would save the MOD a small fortune not only on subsidising food costs, but also the admin side of it ?? I have to stand by my theory, because there is nothing to prove otherwise, that this PAYD, would have been introduced regardless.

 

[mad_collie]

One last quick question to you all, maybe two,

If not one person had ever complained about food charges, do you believe we would be where we are today with PAYD ??

PAYD is a tri-service introduction, the RAF being a lot smaller than the Army. I believe the Army have a very differen set up to the RAF, much less 8-5, Mon to Fri. Therefore, much more use of weekend messing and in my experience, Army bods more likely to go for breakfast, probably cause they actually need the calories for their day ahead. Do you think that a few moaning Airman, had the power to influence a change which has resulted in PAYD across 3 services ?

Or is it entirely possible, that people in high places, who are much more intelligent (on paper) than you and me, saw a vision that would save the MOD a small fortune not only on subsidising food costs, but also the admin side of it ?? I have to stand by my theory, because there is nothing to prove otherwise, that this PAYD, would have been introduced regardless.

I think the answer lays somewhere between the two. Whether you want to accept the fact that people HAVE been bleating about paying for meals they don't eat or not, I don't really give a sh1te - it happened.

Of course, if there is a cost saving measure to be made in the military - someone will do it. Whether it works in the long run is a different matter.

 

[Mentalist]

I think the answer lays somewhere between the two. Whether you want to accept the fact that people HAVE been bleating about paying for meals they don't eat or not, I don't really give a sh1te - it happened.

Of course, if there is a cost saving measure to be made in the military - someone will do it. Whether it works in the long run is a different matter.

Nice articulate comments, when put the way you have, how can anyone argue.
If moderators don't really give a sh1te about what a new member has to say in a reasoned discussion, I will have to consider wether the eGoat is a place worth hanging around in.
Obviously the question about " why don't people register and contribute " could be easily answered by the tone of your reply.

 

[chiprafp]

A moderator is just an individual who gives up their spare time to keep this place running and their status as a moderator really should not be used as a weapon against them. We deserve an opinion too or would you rather we hide behind an alt?

Lets keep it on topic please but if you feel you cannot stay here because someone disagreed with you then I will be sorry to see you go after your level of contribution so far.

 

[mad_collie]

Nice articulate comments, when put the way you have, how can anyone argue.
If moderators don't really give a sh1te about what a new member has to say in a reasoned discussion, I will have to consider wether the eGoat is a place worth hanging around in.
Obviously the question about " why don't people register and contribute " could be easily answered by the tone of your reply.

This has nothing to do with me being a moderator, I just don't personally give a sh1te whether you want to accept the facts that other forum members have told you.

 

[Mentalist]

A moderator is just an individual who gives up their spare time to keep this place running and their status as a moderator really should not be used as a weapon against them. We deserve an opinion too or would you rather we hide behind an alt?

Lets keep it on topic please but if you feel you cannot stay here because someone disagreed with you then I will be sorry to see you go after your level of contribution so far.

A moderator should be someone who sets out a high standard for others to follow. If a moderator loses their cool just because someone disagrees with them, maybe it's they who have a problem.
I have kept my comments, completely on topic throughout. I did not use his moderator status as a threat, you have managed to assume that yourself.
Of course you deserve an opinion, but surely telling someone that what they think is not worthy of a Sh1te is a liitle contradictory of an online discussion forum ??
Or should all members resort to that line once someone doesn't agree with them ??
Only asking, as I'm new here and if I do stay, I want to know the rules we are all playing by.

 

[Mentalist]

This has nothing to do with me being a moderator, I just don't personally give a sh1te whether you want to accept the facts that other forum members have told you.

You, are letting yourself down with your playground reaction.
So I am to be bullied into agreeing with the comments that SOME other members have expressed, without standing up for what I believe.
I should also not be allowed to ask for supporting evidence to back up such statements.
I won't resort to your low level of discussion skills, so thanks for your comments.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

This is me speaking as someone who has done 25 years... People have complained for years about paying for food they don't eat, it was in every AMP forum I went to. They listened to what was wanted, and don't forget it is tri-service.

How long have you done in service?

 

[Mentalist]

It's fair and absolutely true to say that PAYD had a long lead-in time...Hard to pin down but probably the subject of whinges for a good 30 years. People going back that long really did have a bee in their bonnet about it so Mentalist you're going to have to accept that as you weren't around to witness it. Not armed with servicable crystal balls in those days I doubt more than a handful of the wisest amongst us could prophesise what would be the outcome. As the PAYD plans began to firm up those directly involved either in the contracting or messing commitees probably had alarms bells beginning to go off in their heads but at that point it probably had a head of steam up and impossible to stop what there is today.

As for air officer's involvement...I'm guessing people further down the food chain staffed this and formulised plans to present to them...These activities will have done the careers of the developers no harm whatsover so in selling it to the upper echelons no amount of proxy enthusiasm would have been spared on your behalves about how much you all wanted it...plus any SO2/1 who can sell major savings upstream, especially off the back of perceived enthusiasm from the common soldiery, would be encouraged to do so. So I think AOC's had involvement in the final say but what they see to make a judgement on and what the true state of affairs actually are differ.


Will you be able to pin it down to a single document? unlikely. Will there be multiple sources stating 'appetite' for PAYD? Yes if you dig around enough. Will they represent accurately what was said in these working groups of years ago? You can twist and record records to suit your requirements in any walk of life....

Pretty fair post Vim, I don't dispute for one minute that people moaned, I've seen people moan about being told they are off to USA for 4 weeks. My point was that I think it easy for some people to point and gloat at what is happening right now, and have a little dig by saying that we reap what we sow. I never reaped any of this and I don't believe the majority did either. I also believe that PAYD is a product of Whitehall savings, independent of any moaning from the ranks.

It is today's troops who are being affected by this and the full impact is yet to be felt. By that I am talking about the creation of a fast food Armed Forces which can only be a huge negative for the UK.

I still stand by to be corrected, that there is no formal link between moaning airmen of yesteryear, and today's dogface that is PAYD. All I can hear, is yesterday's generation saying "I told you so" in a patronising tone.

We are/were all members of the same gang, how can trying to put the blame of PAYD at the feet of today's Air Force be right ?

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

It's fair and absolutely true to say that PAYD had a long lead-in time...Hard to pin down but probably the subject of whinges for a good 30 years. People going back that long really did have a bee in their bonnet about it so Mentalist you're going to have to accept that as you weren't around to witness it. Not armed with servicable crystal balls in those days I doubt more than a handful of the wisest amongst us could prophesise what would be the outcome. As the PAYD plans began to firm up those directly involved either in the contracting or messing commitees probably had alarms bells beginning to go off in their heads but at that point it probably had a head of steam up and impossible to stop what there is today.

As for air officer's involvement...I'm guessing people further down the food chain staffed this and formulised plans to present to them...These activities will have done the careers of the developers no harm whatsover so in selling it to the upper echelons no amount of proxy enthusiasm would have been spared on your behalves about how much you all wanted it...plus any SO2/1 who can sell major savings upstream, especially off the back of perceived enthusiasm from the common soldiery, would be encouraged to do so. So I think AOC's had involvement in the final say but what they see to make a judgement on and what the true state of affairs actually are differ.


Will you be able to pin it down to a single document? unlikely. Will there be multiple sources stating 'appetite' for PAYD? Yes if you dig around enough. Will they represent accurately what was said in these working groups of years ago? You can twist and record records to suit your requirements in any walk of life....

Pretty fair post Vim, I don't dispute for one minute that people moaned, I've seen people moan about being told they are off to USA for 4 weeks. My point was that I think it easy for some people to point and gloat at what is happening right now, and have a little dig by saying that we reap what we sow. I never reaped any of this and I don't believe the majority did either. I also believe that PAYD is a product of Whitehall savings, independent of any moaning from the ranks.

It is today's troops who are being affected by this and the full impact is yet to be felt. By that I am talking about the creation of a fast food Armed Forces which can only be a huge negative for the UK.

I still stand by to be corrected, that there is no formal link between moaning airmen of yesteryear, and today's dogface that is PAYD. All I can hear, is yesterday's generation saying "I told you so" in a patronising tone.

We are/were all members of the same gang, how can trying to put the blame of PAYD at the feet of today's Air Force be right ?

Do some digging on AMP, AFPRB etc you will find stuff. After all tangible is tangible.

 

[True Blue Jack]

You, are letting yourself down with your playground reaction.
So I am to be bullied into agreeing with the comments that SOME other members have expressed, without standing up for what I believe.
I should also not be allowed to ask for supporting evidence to back up such statements.
I won't resort to your low level of discussion skills, so thanks for your comments.

Wow, you must be a delight to work with. You presented your opinion as fact and were shown differently by a number of people with longer experience of the subject in question. Sometimes even the best of us have to learn to accept when we are wrong, and on the subject of the origins of PAYD you are wrong; to tell you so is not an act of bullying I assure you. The evidence you seek lies in 30+ years worth of staff studies and consultation documents and if you insist that you wish to see it in black and white then go ahead and look for it, I am sure the people at HQ Defence Food Services will be happy to provide.

Back to the main topic, I don't think ISS will struggle financially if people don't eat in the messes. As we have seen they are already looking to centralise messing at weekends and that will lead to a rationalisation of their manpower in due course. In the meantime, they will put all their efforts into their retail outlets, i.e, the butty wagons and the coffee shops, because that's where their profit margin is. ISS are not in this business to provide a service, they are in it to make money and they will do so. That is the reason I believe that the contractorisation of our catering services - a separate issue from PAYD but inextricably linked nonetheless - was a bad idea from the outset but that is not ISS's fault.

 

[Dazzy26]

Maybe ISS need to look at their structure to see where all the money is going as it's not on buying quality food. The ISTAR hub not only has a Mess Manager per Mess, but 3 managers sat in the Catering Officer with their thumbs up their a**se getting paid for what? That doesn't include the Sqn Ldr and WO contract monitors (who I know are being paid for by the RAF and will depart by the end of the year). But from the tone of this thread what are they seeing whilst they are monitoring?!

It appears to be Costa and the buttie wagon that are keeping ISS's head above water here! However wasn't it the Stn funds that bought the Costa franchise and paid for the conversion at a pretty penny before ISS arrived? So now Costa is making a decent profit, have ISS paid any of that money back to the Stn Fund (or will they ever have to?)

The staff on the shop floor are not being replaced as they leave as ISS say they can't afford to recruit, but it appears none of the management are leaving!! As has already been said a lot of the RAF and civilain chefs have not changed, but they can't provide quality with the cheap rubbish that is being bought and dumped on them and told to get on with it. (no I am not a slop swiller!!!!!).